Speaker A: All right.

Speaker B: Hello and welcome everyone to another episode of Waiting to Be Signed, a very special interview episode. We're joined today by Peter Bauman, AKA MonkAnthony, as he's known online. And if you have been around the fxhash world, the RightClickSave world, the Le Random world, you're very familiar with him probably. Trinity, of course, is with us as well. How's it going everyone?

Speaker A: Good, thank you. Yeah, thanks for having me. Great to be on.

Speaker C: Yeah, it's so exciting to have you on. And you know, we are on camera right now. You, the listeners, are not on camera with us unfortunately, but I just wanted to call out, you have a very nice TENDER shirt on.

Speaker A: Oh yeah.

Speaker C: Wear your art, man.

Speaker A: We all know him, he's another TENDER OG, but Dan, who's, you know, on Twitter @idflood with many Fs. Yeah, he was very kind to gift this to me. So yeah, thank you very much, Dan.

Speaker B: Is that a hand tie-dyed piece?

Speaker A: Yeah, I think it's like a, a one-of-one from what I understand. Um, yeah, so it was a Really nice gift from not only somebody like from Tender, but we work with Dan very closely at Laranda because he's building our website. He also did like the RightClickSave and Club NFT site. So definitely appreciate that.

Speaker B: It's cool to have another founding Tender on the show, though. I think we— I'm sure we'll talk about a little bit, but I think a lot of what we're going to talk about is going to be all over the space and just your story in general, which I think could be a good place to start, which is an introduction from you, Monk. Who are you? What's your background in art, coding, collecting? Do you even code? How'd you get into crypto and NFTs and generative art in general?

Speaker C: And how did you start writing about them also?

Speaker A: Yeah, sure. Thanks. I'll start with, I guess, my background in art, or I guess like my love of art. It's something I've always been interested in, like in terms of visual art. I always went to museums growing up as a kid, and we had a museum membership to this modern art museum near us, and my sister worked there. And so we would go there quite a bit. And I don't know if I got it as a kid, you know, but something definitely seeped in, some interest and an appreciation for it. And then I also think of film and music as art, obviously. I mean, so like, I'm really into movies like Tarkovsky and, you know, Claire Denis and Kurosawa. Like, so I really like that history of film as well. And then music, you know, Brian Wilson is like one of my favorite artists ever, and David Byrne and Brian Eno, and even today, like Beach House and Fiery Furnaces, like Panda Bear. Like, so yeah, I don't think of art only visually, and I have this kind of long love of it. And then, but another love of mine is like history. So I always I've always loved history. I've always just loved contextualizing, like, kind of where we are and how we got here. So, like, it was kind of natural at some point maybe to pair this love of history and this love of art. And then I've always written too, like, professionally. Writing has been a big part of my career. So I lived in Hong Kong for 12 years and I started out there teaching and then I got 2 master's while I was living out there. They were in international relations, which is—I like to think of international relations. It's like the history of like the news. It's like how we got to you know current events. And after that, I did an MBA, and I was going to go into something related to maybe diplomacy after that. But I was in Hong Kong, so I got like a natural for me to go into finance there. And so I did that for a bit. But I Really, really disliked that job, but that is kind of how I got more interested in like tech and investing. I was actually covering Chinese tech for this equity research firm, which is a finance job, but actually what it is is like research and writing. You research companies and you write about them, and it was tech related. So we were covering Chinese companies like Alibaba and Tencent, and but I despised that job and that life. So I ended up moving to Bangkok and working at the UN. there. And there's a place called the Economic and Social Commission for Asia and the Pacific. It's kind of like the headquarters for the UN in Asia. And I was also doing writing and research there, and it was also tech-related. It was about like tech for development and how countries can like most cost-efficiently deploy like fiber optic cable, things like that. That's sort of how I got interested in like Blockchain and that kind of side of it, and then through getting into like blockchain and crypto, which I got into investing in tech, I learned about NFTs and started learning about the art side. You know, I started collecting on ETH first, and then moved to Tezos, and you know, Hickick Nunk is where I started in Tezos. Through that is is where I heard about FXHash. I wasn't there like day one in FXHash, but you know, maybe a couple weeks after it launched, and it was uh. It was like love at first sight. And it was also like the— you kind of hear a lot in the crypto space about community and like how important it is. But I think a lot of what I had experienced in that space with community was not actually— it didn't feel very authentic. But once I got, uh, or I found fxhash, I, I did feel that. And a few weeks or about a month or so after being a pretty regular character in like the fx hash Discord. Kazi from, uh, Tender and from fx hash reached out to ask if I wanted to do something, do some writing for Tender. That was the first writing I had done in this space, and that was back in like those early Tender days. So that was like December 2021 when we first started there.

Speaker C: And that was back when editorials were huge, like that was a main value driver.

Speaker A: That was kind of like your ticket into the, into the club, was like you sort of wrote an editorial. I'd never written anything about that space before, so I was asked to write an editorial. I had this kind of background in writing, but that was my first time that I had written about the space. So that was cool. Like, TENDER really was my start with writing about art.

Speaker B: And that was your Farbteiler editorial, right? Which I feel like When that came out, the amount of references that you packed into that piece, like explaining some of the historical connections to art, like now seeing where you are now, like it makes so much sense, right? Like, because I think that was a pretty groundbreaking editorial compared to what others have written, like myself included, where it's more just kind of about like what I like about this piece, you know, the end, like that's it. And yours was like, whoa, there's like a lot of research put into this and it felt really on a different level.

Speaker A: That was what was so cool about TENDER and those like editorials is, you know, Adam was very open and like You can do what you want. And in a way, you know, I don't really know where that like came from. Like I didn't spend like a huge amount of time doing that, especially relative to maybe other things that I've done since. I was so interested in Farbteiler and in the artist description about Farbteiler, Erik Swahn didn't really write that much about it. Like he put a little bit, but it, you know, it wasn't like super detailed. So it was kind of open-ended where I could kind of just go where I wanted to take it. And that was cool because I was talking to like Zach Lieberman recently and like he was talking about artists where like he like really wanted to like get inside their head And like just see where they came from. And, and the artist that he mentioned was like, was Erik Swahn. And yeah, I kind of felt that same thing, just, uh, this kind of inexplicable connection. And I think part of that is his use of color and something that he clearly places a lot of importance on. And he took that back to Johannes Itten and, and, uh, Bauhaus. He was like one of the original Bauhaus instructors. So yeah, I think That piece or that collection and that editorial and kind of getting invited by Tinder to write it was all kind of serendipitous in a way.

Speaker C: And around the same time, that was when you started tweeting every single day. I went back and looked at your early tweets and it was, for at least 200 days, I will try to write about a piece of generative art. And I think it ended up being a whole year, right?

Speaker A: It was just 200 days because I was exhausted after those 200 days. I mean, I do still tweet maybe more ad hoc about it, but that, like, that 200-day mega thread, because that was back in maybe February or January back last year.

Speaker C: Still early days, yeah.

Speaker A: Yeah, so like the collections had started to like pile up, but nothing like how they've piled up now. Just trying to like wrap my head around everything that was coming out and try to just get an idea of like what I like. So that's kind of where that started, and it wasn't pieces that even I necessarily owned It was just work that I liked, and some of it was before the 1.0 release. So some of it was during that time when there was going to be like the greats burning. That was also kind of part of it, was I wanted to kind of highlight some collections that were— that I liked a lot, that the supply was about to get burnt. So that was also kind of one of the reasons I started doing that.

Speaker B: It was such a fun exercise and fun to follow and and see like, what's the next piece Monk's gonna write about? And I'm sure you inspired quite a few people to mint or collect on the secondary at the time too, which must have felt pretty good.

Speaker A: What I really got out of it was, I do think it was like a good exercise in writing because you have to be so concise on, you know, with one tweet on Twitter. And then I was already using a bunch of characters for, you know, the title and the artist. And if the title had a really long name, I was like, oh no, This one's going to be really tough. But it was an exercise in kind of using some of that vocabulary to write about art and just think about, you know, an exercise in sort of what resonated with me. And certainly an exercise in concision and just like trying to say something that was even like half interesting in, you know, 80 characters because I kind of already used a bunch for some other stuff. So I think that was also like another fun part about sort of developing as a, as a writer in this space.

Speaker B: I think this could be a good segue also to talk a little bit about your collecting. You know, we browsed your wallets, of course, and you have a really eclectic collection. And also you're still very active. You know, there's a lot of people who collected in the beginning and then kind of stopped collecting for a while. And you can see that gap in their minting history and their wallets and like, they just went away for 6 months, but it kind of felt like you never took that break. You've always been engaged. So what do you look for in projects that you're minting, what qualifies a project to make its way into the vault. And as you've kind of delved into this more like research, like education, like self-education on the history of generative art, like how has that learning influenced the way that you collect now?

Speaker A: Yeah, you're definitely right about the eclectic nature of my collecting. Like I was looking at it the other day. And yeah, I think between MonkAntony and MonkAntonyBurner, I've got like 100 pages on objects. Which I had no idea it was that much, to be honest. In terms of like what I look for, I'm pretty agnostic about how famous an artist is or like what chain it is, although obviously everything on Object would be Tezos. But, you know, if I like something and if it's 1 tez, I have no problem getting it or minting several. And if it's, you know, a little more expensive, then, you know, I'll try to maybe move something around to get it too. But that kind of taste is similar to my music taste, which is also quite eclectic. You know, I listen to a lot of different genres, and I really like work that's experimental, that makes me feel something. And it's cool to talk about artists. Like, I was very fortunate to meet Kim Asendorf in Tokyo the other week when we were there for Bright Moments, and he's also really into music. And we were talking about how just like Different music makes us feel different things and like how art can cause those same feelings. And I felt that way. Like some of my favorite music is like dream pop and like shoegaze. And I've talked to Zach Lieberman about the same, like literally those exact same genres, like Cocteau Twins and Beach House and how like that music just makes you feel a certain way. And certain art makes you feel that way. Visual art makes you feel that way too. Like Iskra, her work has always had that kind of really delicate, kind of fuzzy It sounds like Beach House to me. It sounds like dream pop to me when, when I hear it. If I kind of see something that resonates, I'll go for it. And I also just love going through like an artist or collector that I respect and going through their wallet and picking through it and copying them. That's like one of the best things. And then in terms of the difference between MonkAntonyBurner and MonkAntonyVault, there used to be a difference, but essentially there's no difference anymore. Like Vault now just means like my earlier collection. That has a lot of like early pieces that I collected there. But at this point, I pretty much only use the burner to mint new things. So like the vault is like offline. Sometimes I'll send stuff to the vault, but I've even kind of gotten less inclined to do that. So vault definitely doesn't mean like I consider it special really in any ways. It's more just like my hardware offline wallet.

Speaker C: So another question for you, also in line of what you collect. Would you say that you are a generative art maxi? Is, I think, something that a lot of people in the overall fxhash community might say, just in terms of that's what we're primarily exposed to day to day. Has that been really your primary point of contact within the blockchain art space?

Speaker A: I'm definitely not a generative art maxi in that I only collect pieces where the artist has, you know, ceded control to this autonomous system. A lot of the artists I love aren't necessarily generative, but I think the vast majority of what I've collected has been from fx hash. So in that sense, it's been generative. And Will, you also asked about my research, how that's affected my collecting habits. And I do think that researching about the history, or like knowing about the history, I do think that that does inform my collecting. It helps you distinguish, or it helps me distinguish between kind of what is actually new and like what's an imitation. And it also helps you dig deeper into different artists that are out there. A lot of digital artists or generative artists are kind of only starting to get into NFTs. And so maybe they have a longer practice that isn't NFT related. But that's been cool is to like, through like talking to people or just through research, noticing that, oh, like this really influential artists has just started making NFTs and nobody's really talking about it yet because they're not big in like the NFT generative art space. But, you know, they're big, you know, they were at the Whitney in 2001 and they're in, you know, the MoMA permanent collection. But because they've only just started getting into NFTs, maybe they're only just starting to get noticed or they haven't been noticed by like this community yet. So like one example of that is like Jason— Smith. Salavon, who's yeah, he's in the permanent collection of LACMA and MoMA and the Met. And he was at Bitch Dreams at the Whitney in 2001. And artists from that generation like Casey Reas and Ben Fry and Zach, that was like a really big exhibition for them around their formative years. And I know that artists like Salavon like directly inspired some of those like you know huge names in the space. So. but something that has a way that kind of research and learning more and digging deep has informed my collecting. Sullivan, his new project is pretty cool and it just came out like a week ago.

Speaker B: Is this Totem?

Speaker A: Yeah, it's got a cool conceptual element. He comes from that more mainstream art world, so of course, you know, typically there's— they're a bit stronger on the conceptual side. And, you know, obviously that's not always the case. He was doing AI art since like early days. He's been an OG in AI art as well. So he has a lot of like pop culture references in his work and kind of always has. And this piece definitely demonstrates that. And it's making a comment about like kind of wealth disparity and income disparity. And what's cool about the collection is that there are some pieces that are, I think, like 60 ETH or something, which, you know, realistically will probably literally never be sold, or at least—

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: not likely in the near term. But then there are pieces that are like $5. So it's quite an interesting collection in that respect. And definitely, I think, a very interesting project.

Speaker B: It was interesting to hear you say that the community has a hard time discovering like these legacy world, like trad world artists that cross over. It's something that I feel like we all collectively want. But then you're right, it's like when it happens, it feels like often those artists aren't rewarded. Collectors here, don't know about them or aren't conditioned to collect them or are skeptical of the price points maybe. And their collectors from the traditional world are skeptical of the medium that they're now releasing the work on. It does kind of feel like a lose-lose proposition for them often. Like, is that something— have you ever talked to any of these people now? Like, I imagine you've probably gotten into more collecting those artists as well, right? Like, have you had any conversations like that?

Speaker A: A lot of them from the mainstream art world do have a skepticism of NFTs, especially from the more pioneering generation. When we talk later about Le Random, I can kind of get into generations more. But another example would be 2 artists who are huge pioneers that I love and that I've been fortunate to speak to. One is A. Michael Knoll, and I'm sure you guys have heard of him. He was in that very first Howard Wise Gallery show in 1965, and that was the first non-university, the first public gallery computer art exhibition. Yeah.

Speaker B: He made the Mondrian thing, right?

Speaker A: Right. Yeah, that experiment with computer composition with line. And so like, Knol, I've had a long phone conversation with him and like, he's very skeptical of NFTs and releasing his work as NFTs. And I guess he feels it can be hard to wrap your head around it. And especially, I think he's got quite a negative view of them. He has that in common with quite a few people, I guess, that aren't in this space who do associate NFTs with You know, monkey JPEGs and scams and rugs or snake oil is, I think, literally what he called them. So with somebody like him, it can be quite tricky. It's just a slow process. Like, you're not going to change their mind over one email or one phone conversation. But, you know, maybe over time, if you kind of share different things like I've shared, I've even shared like Tender with him. And because he also has disparaged like the kind of quality of the work being produced as NFTs, which is kind of ridiculous as we all—

Speaker C: When you have enough volume, of course, there'll be areas that where quality might be lesser than, and—

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker C: But, you know, we are seeing so much volume and, but the stuff that's great is like, it's truly art. And I don't think that anybody can say that it's not. And that goes for everything that's released, not just the things that have a very high floor.

Speaker A: No. Yeah, absolutely. But there are other artists who I've spoken to, like Roman Vrasko, who's another pioneer. Like, he's becoming interested in— the Vrasko Center is becoming interested in digitizing his work. So he's working with Ira Greenberg about that. And I know Ira's been on your show, and I think he's mentioned that maybe to you as well. There are certainly pioneers who are, even if they haven't released NFTs yet, or maybe just a very few who are interested and will be releasing more in the future. Like, another one is like Rebecca Allen, who is just an artist that I absolutely love. She's like a video art pioneer. She's like the first— she like basically invented and started like motion capture and like motion capture art. And like arguably in like the late '70s made like the very first like GIF. That file format didn't even exist back then, but it was a short video that continuously repeats. She did some of the Kraftwerk, like some of their music videos in like the '80s. I mean, she's just like phenomenally awesome and I love her. And she's also been like really inspirational to like contemporary artists like Operator who have like been directly impacted by her work because she does a lot of work with like the human body and motion. And I've also been like very fortunate to be able to talk to her. And she's also quite skeptical of NFTs, but she has released one NFT. And so she's another example like Jason Salavan.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: of a person with this decades-long celebrated career in museums and who has just started releasing an NFT or NFTs, but it hasn't really been, I think, given the importance that it deserves. So yeah, Rebecca Allen's work is definitely somebody else who, if you're looking for one of these very celebrated mainstream artists who's just now getting into NFTs, her and Sol LeWitt are 2 Great examples.

Speaker B: When you're having these, you know, to the extent that you can say, and if you can't say we can cut it out, but are you approaching these artists kind of in your role at Le Random as saying like, hey, like not only do we love your work and we revere your role in the history of this movement, but we also want to like publish you and bring you to the world? Like, is that kind of one aspect of Le Random that maybe people aren't aware of yet?

Speaker A: For sure. We are trying to encourage some of these artists to release some of their work as NFTs and just demonstrate that there are, that there would be a market for it, that there are serious collectors out there that are interested in it, that we know about their work and their history and their legacy and their impact. And yeah, without a doubt, that's something that we're trying to do. That's part of it. Another part of it is, you know, we want to talk to them, we want to hear their story. We want to, especially for me, because, you know, we'll talk about this later, but, you know, I do the kind of content there. So, you know, I want to interview them. I want to ask them questions. I want to learn from them. I want them to be able to tell their story. I want to connect them with people who I know that they've directly impacted and have like kind of set up like a conversation or a dialogue between contemporary artists and this pioneer who I know would have this kind of interesting interesting conversation. And so, yeah, like, that's part of it. But there's also another part of, we want to tell the story of this generative art movement. And we know that a lot of, you know, some collectors in the space, obviously not all of them, but they don't know as much about that history. And they're really eager to learn about it. And they kind of want that context as well. And that's a big thing that we're trying to provide.

Speaker C: Will, I know that you're trying to do that right now through reading books, like textbooks.

Speaker B: It's a whole slog though, and I'm getting through the book very slowly. Like, they're very dry sometimes, or at least the one I'm reading. So if you can make that content more accessible, I think there's certainly an appetite for it out there.

Speaker C: Where's the drama? Where's the, uh, the social interaction? The, uh, can you make it like Friends? Maybe. Is that what you're asking for? Do we need to turn this into like a—

Speaker B: What's the will they, won't they of generative art?

Speaker C: Yes, exactly.

Speaker A: What book do you happen to be, to be reading?

Speaker B: When the Machine Made Art. Oh yeah, it's a classic. Grant Taylor.

Speaker A: Yeah, that's kind of like the gateway book, I think, to like really, really get into like the weeds. But yeah, it's, it's a fantastic overview, especially of that like '60s to '80s decades. One issue that I found, like, when researching the space is that a lot of these texts, they cover that same period. They cover that '60s, '70s, or '60s, '70s, '80s period, and then they kind of stop. And then like that '90s to 2000s period doesn't get quite as much attention. And I mean, part of that is just it's— we're waiting for who is going to—

Speaker C: So new too, right?

Speaker A: Yeah, exactly right.

Speaker C: You're right. It's interesting though, because that's also when computing power really had that next big leap. You know, people were very excited about browsing the web, having a GUI of all things. And it is fascinating. You know, that's when, you know, the whole demo scene really came to fruition as well. And people doing all sorts of crazy shit with computers.

Speaker A: Yeah, definitely. Like demo scene and net art and then design by numbers and Bagel and like Processing and all these things kicked off, you know, not to get too far ahead, but that is the The story that Larandom is also trying to tell.

Speaker C: I think that many people who are in this space have heard of Larandom. Maybe there are some people who haven't, but I don't know if it's as widely known as what Larandom is, what it's doing. Even if 10% of the people listening are less aware, could you give an overview of what's happening with Larandom and what it is? Yeah.

Speaker A: So on a basic level, we're A collection. So we raise money from investors to collect and to build a collection. And there's kind of 2 parts to the company. There's the collection part and there's the editorial part. The collection part is mostly done by TheFunnyGuys and Conrad or NemoCake. They will both be names very familiar to people in the space. And then the content side is more my responsibility, but I help with collection and, you know, they help with content as well. So it's not that siloed, but those are the 2 main parts. Our mission is to show that computers extend human creativity, that they make our lives more interesting, that we want to build a collection that tells the story of generative art, that tells the story of the history of generative art. So like our collection is different from some of the other big DAOs out there. You know, we're not only trying to get 20 of every Art Blocks curated release, we're looking to collect artists that came around, you know, before 2020. And obviously some of them are on Art Blocks. And we obviously do collect on Art Blocks curated, and we love that platform and those artists. But like, that's not only what we're looking to collect. Whereas a lot of those bigger DAOs, it seems like that's what's in their collection is, you know, Punks and Art Blocks curated and those artists. We really want to tell the entire history of the movement, starting from artists who who began the work, you know, starting from like A. Michael Knoll and those pioneers in the sixties. And we want to include artists from every generation that we see it. So we've kind of broken down the history into three different generations, and that's like very broad. There are We have kind of broken it down further, but basically it's 3 generations. That's how we think about it. Like kind of like those pioneers from like the '50s all the way to the '90s is what we see as generation 1. And then we see generation 2 as when processing and the internet combined to kick off the second wave that is, you know, headlined by Rees and Lieberman and like Leah. And then the third generation we see as like this on-chain generation. So, you know, we don't only want to collect from that third generation. We want our collection to tell the visual story of the movement. And on the content side, we want to actually help write that story and help contextualize what's happening today in relation to generative art's place in history and in art history. That's kind of the long-winded basics of what we do is this collection side and content side.

Speaker B: I think there's a lot to dig into there, but before we— I maybe more formally quiz you on what's going on, what is the story of your involvement? Like, how did you go from writing Tender editorials and collecting and doing some writing for RightClickSave and stuff? What was it? How did you get involved?

Speaker A: So I didn't really remember this story. I had to kind of go back and like check my DMs. So it actually was Tender and that Farbteiler editorial It was like maybe a couple of weeks after that came out that, that TheFunnyGuys DM'd me. And honestly, I didn't remember why he originally DM'd me because we, you know, we've spoken a lot since then because he also DM'd me shortly after that about buying one of my pieces from my collection. So I was like, yeah, did he start by trying to poach this piece from me or, or was it about the writing? And yeah, it was, it was February of last year. And it was based on that Farbteiler article. So I hadn't written my second Tender piece yet, which was about Echoes by, uh, Jeff, i++ Sketch. That's how we originally like got in touch. I literally think that very first day we talked, he was like, yeah, I've got this project that might be interesting for us to collaborate on. That didn't really come up again, and we just sort of started talking like almost every day about It was just all about art and all about the art that we like and kind of collecting and, you know, what we were interested in. And then I think it was around April, we actually had like a phone conversation. He kind of told me more about his idea and like his vision for Le Random. That kind of snowballed and it kind of worked out timing-wise because my job in Hong Kong was ending in August. And so I was like, Yeah, like, I didn't want to like continue with that. That was right around the time when I would be potentially starting for Le Random as well. So that's kind of how it got started. It's just like a Twitter DM. So like, keep your DMs open out there.

Speaker B: Ours are definitely open for anyone who wants to talk, not about starting a fund, but just to chat, you know.

Speaker C: Well, also, if you want to start a fund, we're down to talk.

Speaker B: Yeah, we're down to talk. We don't have much to contribute. Yeah, Trinity, where do you want to go from here? You want to dig into the content side? Should we talk more about the Collection side.

Speaker C: I did have one follow-up question on the collection because obviously this 3rd generation that, you know, you're documenting now and that we're learning about right now, collecting is easy, it's straightforward, it's on the blockchain, everybody knows where it is, it's frictionless marketplace. For some of the more historical works, obviously it's something that may have been printed out on paper 40 years ago. It might be something that is only stored on a VHS tape, whatever. Is Le Random also collecting more of the historic works as a part of the overall generative art scene, or is it primarily focusing on works that are on the blockchain?

Speaker A: That's a great question because that's something that we talk about a lot. Those like physical pieces from especially first-generation artists, we aren't collecting them... yet, but a lot of that is because of, you know, the traditional challenges of collecting that kind of work, which is how do you store it? Where do you store it? You know, like the outdated technology and that kind of thing. Obviously, like the Spalters, you know, Michael and Anne. So Anne is one of Le Random's advisors. So they're the gods in that corner of the market. And one of the reasons why we're trying to encourage these pioneers to digitize their work and release it as NFTs. So it's definitely not because we are so like, you know, we're pretty agnostic about work that's an NFT or work that isn't. We see art as art, but NFT does kind of enable this sort of, these frictionless transactions. And so one of the things that we're doing is trying to encourage, you know, the A. Michael Knowles and Rebecca Allens to release their work as NFTs so that Just so that we're actually able to collect it because we want to collect their work. And for us at this time, it's mostly only possible if it's through an NFT.

Speaker B: Continuing on the collection side, because it's so fascinating, I think, always talk to— even though I know it's maybe not your primary role, you can certainly speak to it a bit. So you guys took on funding in part, I guess, to build the platform, but also to, I'd imagine, primarily build the collection. What does that look like as an organization that has outside investment like that tasked with building a collection? What's the timeframe on this stuff? Is it, is it like a 10-year horizon, a 20-year horizon? Like, are people putting in that money knowing that it could all go to zero? I mean, obviously anything can go to zero, but like, what's the expectation managing a fund of this size? Because you've done some also very particular collecting. Like you said, it's not just buying 20 of each of the Art Blocks curated pieces. It's like, buying RGB number 1, setting the record on the pink Zancan Garden Monoliths. So what does it look like? Like, what's the strategy and what, where do, you know, I hate to say it, but like, where do the returns come in? Right. When you take in an investment, there's gotta be some expectation eventually. Right.

Speaker C: And just to pile onto that, but even just like looking at the way Le Random positions itself on the internet, is it even a fund?

Speaker A: Yeah, no, we're, we're not a fund and we, we try to make that clear to artists that we're not a fund. We're not a fund in the sense that we can never be liquidated and force sellers. So we want to make it very clear, especially to the artists that we collect, that we are collecting their work. Think of it as essentially a permanent home. Our timeframe is very long-term. Any kind of exit strategy is something that is very far down the line. We believe in the importance of this movement. long term, you know, we think that this is something that is just beginning and that while, you know, there's going to be short-term market fluctuations and like quote unquote bear markets, you know, that are cyclical and short-term, that we definitely think the long-term directionality is something that we have very like strong belief in. And so yeah, like we don't have a directive to sell. Like, we do have targets that we're trying to demonstrate that we are responsible custodians of the funds that we've so far gathered, but we don't have any directive to sell or to like make a profit or anything like that. We're buying like Helena Sarin's first ever NFT, you know, RGB One, like you mentioned. And, you know, we're buying historically significant pieces that we think are going to withstand the test of time.

Speaker B: So like Metaversal was a kind of a founding partner, right? Or has put money in. So when an organization like that, or even private individuals who might've given money, like, is it considered a donation? Like, I mean, I guess I'm just trying to like wrap my head around like, no, there's no horizon. We're building a collection. Like we're, but we also, people gave us money to do this. It's not a nonprofit thing. Like it's not a donation, right? So they, They're giving money and there's gotta be something written. I mean, if you can't speak about it, you can't speak about it. It's okay. And we can move on from this. I'm just, I'm just always curious when people are like playing with serious money in this space and like making big moves. What is it? Is it like, we're going to sell this to a museum in 20 years and like, but until then we're just gonna be good stewards in the space and try to build the community and build knowledge. Like, if it's a difficult question, we can move on, but it just, it just feels like it's not a donation, right? It's like people who are investing.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: So there has to be some expectation of a return at some point, right?

Speaker A: The funds and the institutions that we raised from, we were very transparent with them that this was going to be long-term. So they knew that going in, and they willingly invested at that time, knowing that it is a company, but it's a company that is in it for the long-term, and that if they're is an exit strategy or any kind of like expected return. It's not something that we are worrying about in the short term. And, you know, in the short term, our goals are to build this historically significant collection and also just in general elevate the space and in a way decouple it from NFTs and show that the space is just a part of the mainstream art world. It's not separate from it. It's something that is part of art history. And we're trying to write that history through our collection and through our editorial branch as well.

Speaker B: Maybe we should transition to the editorial side then, what you're doing directly, right? And bringing that education piece. What is like the plan for the first year or so? Because right now the site is still under construction, more or less, right? There's not been any major content updates. So what's kind of your vision for the first few years of the site?

Speaker A: Well, actually, when this comes out, it will be our full page. So, but as of the recording and what it's been From March 2023 to May has been like a landing page where we're trying to see who's interested and collect, you know, names for like newsletter and just get our name out there. But by the time this episode airs, our full site will be up. We're really excited to be launching that. That's been obviously what we've been working on since day one when I started back in November. You'll be able to see our entire collection. It's not just like a link to a Deca Gallery, like it's something that we've custom built. We're gonna have art content that is gonna be released. So like by the time this comes out, we'll have— we should have 4 pieces out. TheFunnyGuys wrote a piece about, you know, kind of his motivations for starting Le Random. One of the other first pieces is going to be an interview with Casey Reas where we talk about the history of generative art. And a few other things and kind of what he thinks are some of the kind of lesser known parts of that history. We've got an interview coming up with Operator, which is again history focused. So I spoke to them, you know, over the course of like more than 2 hours about deep into the weeds of like the historical roots of human unreadable. And I've given like a sneak peek of that on Twitter if you've seen those Le Random threads about human unreadable and about some of the, uh, all of the, the history in those pieces. And then I'm curating the fx hash exhibition for NFC Lisbon. So like I wrote like a curatorial statement about that gallery. We'll be putting that up on Le Random too. Another big thing that we have is this huge project that I'm, that I've been working on is this generative art timeline, which is basically like a book length. Like it'll be about 100,000 words. Which, if you translate that to a book, that's like 400 pages just of text. It's basically a book that's a timeline of generative art history that goes back to 70,000 years ago to some of the first art ever made. We've consulted with, like, so for example, Phil Gallanter is the one who has written about those Blombos Caves paintings that are where we begin the timeline. But, you know, we've consulted with Zach Lieberman and Casey Reas and Anstalter and Jason Bailey and Georg Bach and, you know, just a lot of people about this timeline. And I've been writing it for months and months and months. I mean, it's literally like writing a book, but it'll all be on Le Random's website. There's going to be about 800 or so, like, moments in the timeline. We've divided it into like 10 chapters. And we're going to be releasing it chapter by chapter. So it would be kind of crazy to release it all at once. It would just be too much information. So we've divided it into 10 and we're going to be releasing it in chronological order, kind of starting with the release of our full site, which will be up any day now and definitely by the time that this airs. And then like, where are we going in the next year? If you can tell, I mean, obviously like a thread throughout my description of Le Random has been about history. So we obviously want to provide a space where the community can better understand its past. But we're not only talking about history, you know, we also want to help curate the present and curate what some of the, you know, amazing artists today are doing, and then also celebrate its future too. So like, that's kind of In my head, like, that's what I want the editorial side to do, is like help the community understand its past, curate its present, celebrate its future, producing content that contextualizes where the space is and where it's going. We really want to support the artists in the space, but also the kind of uninitiated with this kind of like informative content to demonstrate that this is an art movement that we think is going to be written about in art history textbooks. And, you know, it's not something that began with NFTs, but in a way, like, NFTs is more like the end of a very long 1,000-year story as opposed to any kind of like beginning to the story.

Speaker C: We're also not at the end of the story yet. We're still very much in progress.

Speaker A: Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, it's even prominent people in the space do kind of consider NFTs this kind of beginning in a way. But yeah, we want to show that there's even lots of preconditions for NFTs, which Casey Reas has talked a lot about, even through things like smartphones, but, you know, mass media art. And we really want to demonstrate that with our collection and with the editorial.

Speaker B: I mean, that all sounds amazing, first of all. And I feel like the 10 chapters thing would make for a great reading series on our show, Trinity. Like, I don't know how frequently you're going to publish them, like once a week or once a month when they come out, but that would be pretty great for us to talk about those as they air. But is all that going to be like free? Like, is— or is there a part of the site where some of this content is going to be monetized or gated? Like, what's the vision for that?

Speaker A: Yeah, everything will be free. Like, there's not going to be— like, we're not running like ads on our site. There's no like paid subscription. The timeline will be completely available and for free. The goal for the timeline is to get it on a digital form first. It's so big and detailed. But like, having said that too, there's no question that we're gonna get comments that are pointing out that we missed something, that I missed something, and we very much welcome that. Like, this is not like this is the definitive every moment that's important to the history of generative art. And it's not only going to cover art history, it's going to also cover some of the history of mathematics and some of the history of technology, but obviously how they relate to digital generative art. The eventual plan is we want to make it also into a physical book. And so that physical book, of course, you know, we're not going to be giving that away for free. The goal for that book is not to necessarily at all, like, make a profit. Like, we would just like to cover our costs maybe in getting it printed, but We want to make like a really nice, like high-quality book inspired by like, you know, Matt Delaurier's Meridians book, if you've seen those. Those books are works of art in themselves. So we also want to make a book like that for the timeline, but we would probably have to cut down the timeline because like I said, like the digital version is going to be already probably about what a 400-page book would be. That is with no images in it. So we would probably need to cut down the content for a physical book, but the digital book will always be on the Le Random website. And it's also not going to like stop, like it doesn't stop at the year 2018 or even 2023. We're going to have a 2023 next year, we're going to have a 2024, and we're going to have those moments that continue to impact the story of the movement.

Speaker C: Listening to you talk about this, it's honestly quite amazing and This book, even if it's in the 400-page no-picture edition, it's something that should and could sit on the bookshelves of research institutions across the world, you know, libraries and universities all across the world. How do you feel knowing that the content that you're producing now is really telling the future of humanity what generative art is and how we should be looking at it? From a historical context, like I have like tomes of art history books that were published in the 1940s and 1950s, 400+ pages, no pictures of course, but really serve as the encyclopedia and the de facto source of truth, blockchain or no, as to what these art movements are all about.

Speaker A: I think that I haven't wrapped my head around it yet because it's been such a monumental task just The amount of research that's gone into it. It's not finished, by the way, also. Like, I have like a Google document that's like just that is 150 pages that is only listing the moments. So like the actual like writing about each of those, there are around 1,000 of those moments, that's still an ongoing process. So as of like literally today, I've finished writing up until the '60s. Which the end of the '60s, which will be the biggest decade, the biggest single chapter. And so to me, I haven't really wrapped my head around what its impact or like legacy is going to be, because I'm still in like the middle of the hurricane. And I haven't— I'm really just trying to do my best to like actually write it. Like I've— a lot of important milestones have been done, like the core research has been done, although it's really difficult to stop researching about it because you always read something else and you always want to add it. And it could almost be, you know, maybe twice the size as it is now. But I was talking to somebody yesterday about it, Gordon Berger, who's like one of the early, early people who got that art could be connected to the blockchain. Like, I think he was like the first person to give like a TED Talk about like art on a blockchain. He said we should call it the NFT Or the Generative Art Bible, which is a little too flashy, I think, for our style. I think we're gonna probably stick with something like the Generative Art Timeline. But if you have a catchier title, then please let us know.

Speaker C: We'll workshop it.

Speaker B: Yeah, thumbs down to Bible though, for sure. I don't know if I like it.

Speaker A: Yeah, there are some interesting connotations there, but we're excited about what it'll bring to the space. And like, at Bright Moments Tokyo, TheFunnyGuys and I, with Seth Goldstein, who's like the founder of Bright Moments, we were on a panel and we talked about the history of generative art. And I wrote this poster where I just took like 10 moments from the timeline and 10 moments from like kind of the world, and then 10 moments about Japan art, generative art. And we talked at Bright Moments about that poster. Even that like generated like so much interest and like so much just curiosity.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: about the history. And it was just surprising because that was like nothing. Like, that was 10 moments out of what is going to be around 1,000. So it was about 1% of like what we were doing and was in like far less detail. And like Sotheby's has asked us to use those 10 moments for something that they're working on. So like those are going to be like on their site. We haven't really talked that much about the timeline or promoted it. at all. What has gone public, like the 10 moments at Bright Moments and that poster, has been really encouraging so far. We've hit on something that people are really interested in and curious about, and it's cool to be part of telling that story. It is something that I take seriously and that I've spent an enormous amount of time on. And, uh, yeah, I'm very excited about it too.

Speaker B: It's very exciting. I'm really truly excited to start reading this when you put it out. It sounds like it's gonna be incredible, and I need to go find that Bright Moments panel. I'm sure it's live somewhere for view. You know, as we move towards wrapping the episode, we should do some rapid-fire questions. We like to end with those.

Speaker A: Ooh.

Speaker B: And here— so here's one though that is not one of the typical ones, but I wanted to continue on what you were saying about moments and eras. You know, we're halfway through 2023. You're chronicling the present as well as part of this, right? What is like the defining moment so far in 2023, or what do you kind of feel is the vibe of 2023 right now? Like, what's exciting about this year in generative art?

Speaker A: In terms of like what we already have on the timeline for this year, we're starting to see a lot of, a lot more institutional interest in generative art. One thing is the Coded exhibition at LACMA that started back in February. So that Coded: Art Enters the Computer Age, you know, I have the— this, this is another kind of like inspiration for the timeline. This printed physical version of the exhibition. I think that's a really key moment for this year and for generative art history, despite the fact that it hasn't always received like great critical reviews. Like the New York Times has kind of panned it a little bit and some other institutions or some other publications have not always been positive about it. But that's also nothing new in art history is critical panning, especially in this space that's been going on for decades. So that is big. Some of these institutions like Pompidou and Buffalo AKG, and then also LACMA, their acquisition of NFTs for the first time, that's been really important as well. We kind of see this year as the year that major institutions like LACMA, the year that they start taking the space more seriously because the, you know, the auction houses started it. You know, Christie's and Sotheby's and Phillips, those major art institutions were the first. Makes sense logically that the business side was going to be attracted by the extra capital that they could maybe realize from the space. So that was probably always going to happen, and that was a natural fit. But now to see these major institutions get involved, that's kind of like a huge and important step.

Speaker B: I just got back from LACMA. So I just went to see the exhibit over the weekend, which was great.

Speaker A: Yeah. What'd you think about it?

Speaker B: Uh, it was really cool, but I was with a baby, so I didn't get to really like digest it for nearly as long as I would've liked, 'cause she squirms. But at least I got to go. But I should definitely pick up that book. Do you wanna continue with the rapid fire, Trinity?

Speaker C: Let's talk about Monk Antony. Where did that— where did the name come from?

Speaker A: That was something that's kind of like an nod to my love of history. So I like really love history. So not just art history, every kind of history. I watch, read books about it, watch documentaries about it, listen to podcasts about it. It's just something that I've always been interested in. I've always really loved Roman history. And so Monk Antony is kind of a play on Mark Antony, which is maybe not always obvious because a lot of people call me like Monk Anthony. With a TH. I've always kind of liked monkeys, like they've been my favorite animal. And then this kind of nod to Roman history. So that's where that came from.

Speaker B: But is that like an old AOL username or something? Or is it something that you invented for Web3?

Speaker A: Wasn't an old AOL username. That was, you know, like probably something like Weezer related back in the like early, like late '90s or whatever. But That is more recent in the past, like few years.

Speaker B: Here's another rapid fire then. You know, you've been a great guest and we always like to ask our guests who would they like to hear us interview. So any recommendations, any ideas? You know, you've thrown out a lot of names in this podcast already of figures from the past, but yeah, past or present, anyone who's still living, obviously, like who would you like to hear us interview?

Speaker A: Some of those pioneers, like especially those generation 2 And generation 1 pioneers, I think would be great to have on to tell their story firsthand. They also can be skeptical of NFTs. So, you know, you 2 are, I think, some of the best advocates in this space. So, you know, if they get a chance to talk to you personally, I think that that could be really positive. It'd be awesome to hear from some of these pioneers firsthand. So that could be somebody like Roman Brosko, Somebody like Lillian Schwartz. I mean, some of these artists are getting up there, so I mean, I hope that they would be even able to do that. But yeah, like Lillian Schwartz, somebody like Rebecca Allen, Lynn Hirschman Leeson would be like a really awesome person to speak to. And then from Generation 2, like more about like the net art and like computer generation, like somebody from like Joan Heemskerk, from Jodi, Leah, Golan Levin, Cornelia Solfrank, and then, you know, some of those like big, big names that we all know and love, like Casey Reas and Zach Lieberman. I think, you know, that would be, you know, Ben Fry too. Like, he kind of gets forgotten because he's not hugely active in the NFT space, but, you know, he would be an awesome person to hear his side of the story from.

Speaker C: Amazing.

Speaker B: Yeah, great names.

Speaker C: Next rapid-fire question. If you were stuck on a desert island for the rest of your life with one piece from your collection, what would it be?

Speaker B: Or if you could steal one from Le Random's collection.

Speaker C: No, let's start with your collection first.

Speaker A: Okay. Yeah.

Speaker C: And then you can steal Le Random. Yeah.

Speaker A: I'd probably— ah, that's an interesting question. I'd probably choose one of those infinitely animating pieces, which I'm kind of naturally drawn towards anyways, like, just because On a desert island, you know, I wouldn't want to get bored. Not that I would necessarily get bored by looking at the same static image, but I think it would be really cool to have one of those like infinitely animating pieces. So maybe something like Toxy, Defrag, one of those ones that I have in my collection. I really like the Painterly ones, like the version 3s. So I'd say, yeah, maybe a Toxy version 3, a Defrag version 3, or Pound for pound, my favorite collection on fxhash is Robert Hodgins' Growth version 2. So probably one of those.

Speaker C: So we'll give you that and an infinitely powered digital display.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I would need one of those as well.

Speaker C: That's just built in. Okay, cool.

Speaker A: I mean, you two know fxhash better than I do. What would you choose? I'd be curious to know.

Speaker C: I hadn't thought about the infinitely animated piece, but probably from my collection, Ethereal microcosm and really just forming bonds with the different types and different colors of particles and just, you know, being able to put in a lot of personification in them and their activity. And we'll see who wins out over the course of 10 or 20 years.

Speaker A: And every day you woke up, it would look different and it would have morphed and evolved into something new and interesting. Yeah, that's a really good choice as well. How about you, Will? What would you choose?

Speaker B: I'm trying to think real quick now. I wasn't prepared to answer this one myself.

Speaker A: Turning the tables here.

Speaker C: Love it.

Speaker B: Yeah. Infinitely animating is, is cool. I mean, I'm tempted to say something like very large array, cuz then at least you get some audio too, but that might, you would just, you would need to be able to turn it off and on. You know, sometimes you want to hear the audio, sometimes you won't. Having a piece though, that's similar to that. I'm trying to think of like what I have that has some more pleasing audio components to it.

Speaker C: There's Toccata.

Speaker B: Yeah. Toccata could be a really nice one. Toccata is probably. The right answer there. Yeah. Uh, the one that I personally own is not my favorite of the musical variations there, but one that is like right in that pocket because it degrades. And you'd probably want one that's like on like the weeks-long degrading process. So you have this like nice, a way to keep track of time, right? You need to. So that's a, yeah, I think I'll, I'll take Takata.

Speaker A: That would be great. You'd get speakers too.

Speaker C: Yeah. It's a very nice desert island.

Speaker A: High quality display.

Speaker C: Yeah. It doesn't need to be like a Casio It doesn't have to be a Castaway-style desert island. It can be one that has amenities, I suppose. Yeah. Also technically infinitely animating would be Hollow, just to throw that out. So you could see who's visiting the museum today. It was definitely calmer. Oh, or the Ismahelio drop. You can see how your grasses grow.

Speaker B: Oh yeah. That would be a fun one.

Speaker C: I forget what it's called right now.

Speaker A: Proxima?

Speaker B: The one before that.

Speaker A: Oh, okay. I know what you mean. Where like every day it—

Speaker C: The grasses grow, the trees grow.

Speaker B: Yeah. I haven't checked in on that one. a while, actually. Anything else that you want to ask us? That's always our last rapid fire, is like, do you want to ask us any questions before we go?

Speaker A: Yeah, I think we like content creators need to like stick together. Like, I'd love to talk to you sometime in my capacity at Le Random and like interview you too. I mean, learn more about you. And, uh, I mean, I know you've been on other podcasts recently as well, but, uh, something written or like just talking about you in that space, I think would be really Really cool. And like I said, I don't think probably anybody knows more about this fx hash community better than you two. And, and, uh, I think that would be great to have you on, or like speak to you and publish it in some capacity.

Speaker B: Are we going to make the 2022 timeline is the question. Is there going to be the first episode of Waiting to Be Signed? Is it going to make the, make the list? Uh-oh, you're like, oh, I need to put it on there. No, I think that would be cool. I'm down for that. What about you, Trinity?

Speaker C: I'm down for that. You know, I think it's all about creating that history. We're creating that history kind of unknowingly right now. Well, semi-knowingly. Well, it's knowing just as you are, and we're all part of history as it's being lived right now. And I think that's very palpable within this space.

Speaker B: We're conscious of it. I mean, we talk about it every now and then on the show that like we view this as kind of like a way to capture this entire moment. one of the greater, I guess, purposes of the, of the show, right, is it's not just like getting out alpha and like talking about markets. That's a part of it, but that's also just because we're doing NFTs, right? But we've had amazing guests and it's awesome. We're proud of it for sure.

Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, you should be. And I think even what you've done with FX Text, like really with those weekly texts kind of going over like the drops, I mean, it's that in itself you could make into a book at some point because it really does document like week by week what's been happening on the site. And, and I think that's important. And man, I'm excited to finally meet some of the fx hash team in Lisbon for NFT NYC.

Speaker B: Sadly, we're not going to be going to that one.

Speaker C: But spoiler alert, Ozzy's not a cat. Yeah. Sorry. Sorry.

Speaker A: We've had like opportunities in the past, like meet in real life. Like, it was so annoying. Like, I had literally bought a ticket to go to New York in— what was that, like in November? Yeah, it was originally going to be like December, but then I bought a ticket for January to go to New York. And like my, the Portuguese visa like ended up being a month early. And so like I had to get here like within a certain amount of time. So I had to cancel that trip, which really sucked because I was very much looking forward to seeing it. Like there's so many people in the space in New York and meeting you two especially. So. It would be very cool to meet up at some point. Definitely. We'll get it done.

Speaker C: We're here for it.

Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. It'll happen for sure.

Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, anything else? Is there anything that we missed or should we wrap it up? Is there anything else you wanna plug like that we should be looking forward to?

Speaker A: By the time this airs, like, lerandom.art will be up. The first chapter of the timeline will be up. The first 4 editorials, a bunch of artist profiles that we, we wrote ourselves. Like, you can see our entire collection. I know the funny guys will be at NFT Day Zurich. He's going to be talking on a panel there at NFC Lisbon doing the FX hash curation. So looking forward to that, that tiny, tiny bit of our timeline. Sotheby's is going to be, they're going to be putting that up on their website. And then yeah, we've got a bunch happening like collabs in the future, like with Bright Moments and like the next city that they're going to be doing, which is like Buenos Aires. We've got some exciting stuff planned for that, so stay tuned.

Speaker B: Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Monk Antony. It was great to have you on the show. Good to get the word out about everything you're doing, learn about you as a collector, your history. So obviously you're like an original FXHash collector, even though you missed the first weeks. It's okay, but we all missed that first week. Yeah. Thank you so much for coming on the show.

Speaker A: Thank you so much for having me. Like, honestly, I'm such a huge fan of the two of you. And, you know, we've been online friends for a while, but, uh, it's been great to like talk more. And I guess we've talked in like, you know, different calls over the last few months. But yeah, it's been a real pleasure, like you inviting me on and, uh, being on. So thank you so much for having me.

Speaker B: Yeah, of course.

Speaker C: Thank you.

Speaker B: That's the interview. That was Monk Antony. Thank you for joining. Hope you all enjoyed. And we'll be back again soon with another episode. Later.