Speaker A: All right, hello and welcome everyone to another episode of Waiting to Be Signed, a special interview episode. We're joined today by Mimi Nguyen, who You might know from a lot of her work at Verse, from her gallery Nguyen Wahed. And unfortunately, Trinity's not here today. She's on assignment in Canada, but that's okay. We've got Mimi here and we're going to talk all about art and her current exhibition, how she feels about NFTs. So Mimi, how's it going? Welcome to the show.

Speaker B: Thanks so much for having me. Looking forward to our chat.

Speaker A: Me too. Me too. Well, as you know, the first question always for our guests to get you introduced to our audience is to tell us a bit about your background in art and how you came to find generative art and NFTs and get involved in this whole Web3 space.

Speaker B: So yeah, it's gonna be a very long introduction. I thought about it recently. How would I introduce myself to my students in the next academic year? And I usually say it very short, but then it's confusing. The very start was I studied statistics. I studied data science back then. Which I always want to recall that, you know, back then there was no such thing as AI. We coded in SQL and in SAS, and it was called actually quantitative methods. There was not even the word data science. And I was working tech consulting. So I ended up in Accenture and in Boston Consulting Group working with usually data optimization. And in the same time, I was studying media art in the art school. And it was really fun because as an Asian person, you know, it's hard to tell your parents, I'm not going to study economics or law or medicine. So I had to reach the point when I was self-sufficient in a way that I got my own salary from my consulting and then applied to the art school. Because in our community, in Poland, especially in the Vietnamese diaspora, it's not really a common direction for an Asian person. So I was studying media art in the same time working in consulting. So there are lots of pictures from the art school when we're standing outside the sculpture studio and I'm wearing a suit and a laptop, a Dell laptop bag. And I reached a point when I was really fed up with corporate life and I went on to start I studied media art in Berlin, and that was when in the art school, although it was a media art department, it kind of introduced me to computational art. So we were coding in Arduino and doing a lot of 3D printing, kind of more fun works. I found out later Marcel Schwittlick studied in the same building a year later, and it kind of brought me back. It shows me like how the university shapes you and your interests. Like in Poland, media art was more about digital photography.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So we had fundamentals, but for us it was everything that was not painting. So we would have performance art, we would have photography, but in, in, I could see that in Berlin it was computational heavily in a way. So we had physics classes, we were doing cables and all that. I don't even know, like electricity, electric stuff. And then I moved to London to study at Central Saint Martins Innovation because I was really impressed with, you know, what is out there, what can I actually do with myself and all the technologies. And in the same time, going back to working in finance, in fintech, that was the only place that I got a job that was paying me and I still had to pay rent. So again, I had this schizophrenic life when I was going to a very, very hardcore haute couture art school where everybody is wearing crazy clothes. And then in the same time, going to a fintech startup, which was quite cool as well because they were doing machine learning for underwriting. So again, back then we never used the word machine learning, we used algorithmic decision taking. So it's quite interesting to see the evolvement of the technology without using the password. And I think it goes back to fundamentals and that's what I'm looking more and more into it. And then NFT came and I was actually, no, before that I was doing the PhD. So I found a PhD that was bringing both worlds. It was design engineering. So it was a collaboration between Imperial College London, the department that was inside the engineering department. And that building also was in collaboration with RCA, so Royal College of Art. And it kind of brought these 2 worlds together. And finally, the PhD allowed me to go back to using these tools in a way I wanted. So we used neural networks for literature review. Later on, I did a really fun study with IBM Watson where we used affective computing. So emotional AI detecting emotions in teamwork of creatives and engineers. And that was kind of hands-on and really fun work on remote working. COVID happened, so everything got crazy and actually helped my study because the study, I think 6 months before, changed to remote working. And then suddenly COVID happened. I was like, oh my God, every single person now is working remotely. So then NFT came and I was like, oh, this is a great combination because it can also help me bring this engineering background, but also something that I craved all the time that I can actually go and work with artists and be embedded in art. And Verse came also coincidentally from various meetings. Someone introduced me to Jamie a few months before. At that time, Verse wasn't even also about NFTs. So we kind of had a chat about more the future. And then I met August, the CTO at that time, and we were supposed to write an academic paper together. And I ended up working for Verse.

Speaker A: It sounds like you have such a perfect background for this kind of like Web3 moment that we're in right now with engineering, art, and probably some kind of like Quant financial, you know, understanding modeling stuff that you might have been doing on that side of your education. So it makes a ton of sense that you ended up linking up with Verse. But like, what were those early days like there? I mean, I know from talking to Jamie that Verse is originally going to be a trad art platform, right? And they were going to do more like helping people catalog and figure out like inventory and stuff like that. So were you there when they transitioned into NFT? Like, were you kind of part of that with them?

Speaker B: Yeah, so I joined when the decision was that it will become NFT. So of course, there was views before. And that was when, actually, when I met first Jamie, it was in the when it was supposed to be a more online exhibition space. So kind of a response to COVID where different galleries, instead of showing physical shows, would exhibit online. So more like, not metaverse, of course, but more like a very beautiful way how you can show in an online space different types of art, either physical or digital. And then I think the decision came as that the focus would be NFTs, but still with the touch of a lot of traditional artists, for example, coming on board. And at that stage, I was running a lot of symposiums at the university and I was inviting a lot of speakers. So one of the first ones, I mean, Robert Alice, Simon Denny, Arthur Brightman. So the kind of, there was this first talk I did in 2021 and it kind of introduced me to people in the space, I would call it. So different stakeholders. That was something that I thought I could bring to Verse, kind of the network of NFT artists. and people that, you know, Verse as a traditional company was trying to bridge into.

Speaker A: We love Verse. We've been huge fans of them. And honestly, I think both Trinity and I would not have really ever gotten so into collecting on ETH and getting off of like Tezos and fxhash if it wasn't for Verse bringing a lot of those artists who maybe were like in the queue to get into Art Blocks, but then like Verse was giving them another really elevated gallery-like experience to get their work exhibited, get it printed. And really get it kind of like a more unified push and voice behind it. While you were there, you ended up launching your gallery Impression as well. So was that part of your personal plan the whole time to like stay involved with the artist side, or is that something that kind of evolved?

Speaker B: It evolved from Verse growing as a platform. And at one moment, there was more and more collaborators that were coming on Verse. So we were trying to send a signal and communicate that Verse is a platform in a way and partnering with various curators or even galleries physically and offer them an infrastructure. So like the whole minting experience, the centralized wallet. And there was this opportunity that came last year, which was the art fair in Paris, which is one of a very close fair to me because I used to travel to it myself for years and years and years from London. I mean, it's quite easy to get to Paris, but it was a kind of on my list. We actually, a lot of my friends from Poland from the Museum of Modern Art. We kind of had a tour and then they always come to Frieze and then we would go to FIAC in Paris, we would go to Paris Photo. So that was kind of our ritual. And there was this opportunity that Nina was curating a digital sector in Paris Photo. And at that moment, we didn't actually thought that a platform should have a booth. This year is going to change, but because a few of the works that I was showing were not NFTs, some of them, for example, Manfred Mohr, and it just didn't feel right because The works was not NFT and it wasn't really something designed for that. So we created something as my gallery on Verse, and that went to the fair in collaboration with Verse. We spoke about kind of that excitement of how this gallery, the digital gallery, would be one of the galleries on Verse in a way. I think Ivan created his gallery on Verse as well. And he's been still, he's doing actually, I think this week, another drop as well. And That was kind of like a great use case or like a test run for Verse to see how, you know, what has to be built, what is needed for Verse to become a platform that can actually power galleries starting from, of course, internal curators, but also later on doing collaborations with galleries. And then it evolved to Nguyen Wahed, which I always was kind of against to do. I never wanted to run a company and I've been speaking to a lot of artists over the years. I just never felt that I could offer anything interesting for them in terms of a full gallery experience. Of course, you know, a lot of activities that galleries are providing now are blurred and, you know, the whole concept of exclusivity, representation, marketing, exposure, it's a bit different in the digital age, but at least the gallery allows me to push a program that I am most interested in. And I think it's just a natural evolution of a curator. If you have something that you really want to say and something that you really want to push, and artists that you really care about, it gives you this opportunity to focus on them rather than on technical aspects of the platform. And my dream was always to come back and work with these artists that I started my journey with them. So one of the examples would be, you know, when Verse hasn't launched yet and I was already speaking to QBB, there was just this one random Japanese artist. And you surely remember these times when I remember I had to kind of like I sent the link and I was like, look guys, he has 1,500 followers only, but I think he's cool and I like him. And we did like one of the, I think first solo drop digital one was of Qbby on Verse. And then it kind of spiraled into YYYSEED. So in total, I've been working with him on 4 shows. One of them were physical when he came to London. And I just wanted to always have an excuse to come back and work with him again. Same with Marcel Schwittlick and lots of other artists that, you know, they have been an inherent part in my journey, but I just never had an opportunity to go back to them because They were possibly too small for, you know, the growth.

Speaker A: So you said that you were against making a company, but here you are now. It was just announced a few weeks ago that you're officially now not a part of Verse. I assume you're doing the gallery full-time and the— so how did that happen? How did, you know, like what convinced you then? Did artists just like all these relationships with artists saying like, hey, you can do this and we love working with you, like go for it?

Speaker B: I guess before I never wanted to do it because of lack of experience. And that's something that I'm very grateful for, for Verse and for all the artists that I've worked with and everyone that was on the way, because, you know, the last 2 years were on speed. I mean, 2 years in NFTs is almost like 5 years in any other industry. And the same people talk in consulting as well. 2 years in consulting is like 10 years in a bank. And I think it just gave me a very hardcore lesson of how To plan everything and to approach things. And I guess I got older and I, I actually had this thing that when I was very, very young and I was studying in these both universities, economics and art, I always thought that I should do something with these 2 worlds in a way that I know artists and I know rich people. I mean, they were still students at that time, but then I knew that in the future, these people in my economics school will possibly will have a disposable income to collect art. And I was like, I could bring these 2 worlds together. I could never invite them to the same house party, but I was like, somehow this can work because I feel comfortable in both of these worlds in a way. The idea was kind of back in my head, but it just never felt that this can be possible. And yeah, I think since again Nina was a big support with the fair last year and I got the feeling that it's, I really enjoy it and it's really fun. And I think I identified also a few artists that I really care about and I want to spend my time with in a way, like I speak to them daily. And I think that's, that's the idea that I, I found a good network of people that I feel comfortable with and I see myself working with them.

Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, uh, the artists that you have, I'm looking at the list of just everyone who's presenting in Aside right now, and we've interviewed 3 of them plus 1 more who's gonna be coming out. We just actually, we're gonna release an interview with Travis next week.

Speaker B: Mm-hmm.

Speaker A: So yeah, I mean, you've, you've definitely picked some really good ones to build relationships with. Obviously, you have this background in art, you have this background in economics. You know, we talk to a lot of artists on the show, we talk to a lot of collectors, we talk to a lot of people who run platforms like Jamie, and I kind of get a sense of 2 narratives. Like, there are people who think that blockchain and NFTs are going to like swallow all of this and that a lot of art is going to get tokenized eventually, or like a lot of new art is always going to have a tokenized representation. But then there's also a lot of artists now who have kind of gotten their start or kind of built their career in NFTs. And it seems like they're trying to transfer themselves, or at least in part, like get off of tokenization and get more into a traditional art world experience where, yeah, maybe they just do a print or they do a painting or they do a plot and it doesn't have to have a tokenized component to sell. So what is your thesis around NFTs and tokenization? You know, everything that I've seen from your gallery so far, I believe, is had an NFT component. Like, is that always going to be the case? Are you a huge believer in this? Or do you think it's just kind of a potential launching point to get artists like into bigger and better things? Like, how do you think about the entire Web3 thing? I guess.

Speaker B: I literally just spoke to someone about it recently. At one moment, I realized that I'm selling JPEGs. And that was quite crushing in a way. And I think that there is this misconception about NFTs changing the world. Now, I do believe that it's gonna change in the future. I don't know. I do think that we still need a few innovations to come to make it easier, just like Instagram and WhatsApp is Instagram and WhatsApp because we have very fast processors in our iPhones and touchscreen. Without touchscreen, this wouldn't even happen. So there should be like some elements still, I guess, that we don't have yet. For example, screens, or like, how do we preserve art? How do we showcase them?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: That will change the way how we consume digital objects. Because right now, as a collector, I also cannot even showcase art that I buy because I just bought a Samsung Frame and it doesn't loop videos or it doesn't even play videos. It's just ridiculous. So if I don't know how to show it in my house, it kind of loses value after a while. And also, if we talk about big collectors, like art traditional collectors, of course, none of these pieces are ending up in their houses. It's about storage. How do we store digital art if they're in these machines that, you know, even with the wrong setups and libraries, like in, as an example, what I realized is that during my PhD, we did this app with IBM Watson based on their package called NLU, natural language understanding. And during my viva, my super— 2 years, 2 years later or 1 and a half, my supervisor was saying, Paper is published, everything's fine. And she said, "Can you can you present the app on the viva?" And I went back, and it's gone. Like the whole thing just shut down because of some regulatory changes. And I was like, "I can." And that's the thing that that happens if the library disappears. If no one is maintaining it on GitHub, all of this referencing and stuff, it will be gone. So and that was just one and a half years. So what will happen in in five years? So I think that it's the main question of why. These traditional collectors and museums are very slow in adapting that because there's so much uncertainty in that. And of course, I hear from them, they're hiring bigger and bigger teams to know how to preserve these pieces. And then once we just, you know, find this amazing magic bullet that can fix our problems, and then I think the consumption and collecting and hoarding digital objects will be more popular because it's already inherent in our lives. There is already the paradigm shift. There is just, I don't think— Yeah. The tangible kind of solution for it. And in terms of NFT and my own interests, so I'm not against selling JPEGs with blockchain, using that as a ledger. I mean, it's, it's okay. But then of course, I also know that iTunes used to sell MP3s before without blockchain. So we used to consume digital files and buy them. Even before all of this happened. And so we don't really need this, of course. And then for the historical or the inventory, I think it's nice to have it on the blockchain. But what I'm super interested in now, and I think Acid is one of these examples. I mean, when I heard about this Acid project, I was so excited that I can finally work on something like that because it's using this blockchain as a medium in its truth. So like the output wouldn't exist without blockchain. And I think that's— Yeah. Very interesting way. One One Fruit just did a great talk about this whole new era of. I mean, it's it's so complex when you read the transcript, but it's kind of give us an extra layer of reality that is web free basically. And it took me so many years to understand it because when you see the buzzwords and you read them, you're like yeah whatever. But For example, my experience was like I got into darknet just for fun. I was just trying to like to get into it, and it kind of like was the first moment when I was like, ah, this is about this is what blockchain is about because what I was googling, of course, you know Google has filters. So I realized that oh what I'm seeing is not really what is out there. And if you go on this different search engines and if you go through this P2P, it just opens up a different planet. And then there's all of this encryption. So like, you know, in order to get into this website, you need to like decrypt and encrypt messages through private and secret keys. And I was like, oh my God, this is what this is about. But like, it took me to actually experience that myself to understand the promises of blockchain. And then if you consider that this actually becomes a medium for art, it kind of opens so many different venues for artists. And I think that's, that's just fascinating. So I was speaking yesterday to Leander Herzog that performance art was always about like what's now, what's present, but our site allows us to create art with what happened in the future. That's what Rhea Meyers is about. The art worlds will behave in a certain way. In this case, it's very easy because it's unlocked, but Anna Lucia will have a work that, you know, the art world itself will also change. Yeah. If something happens in the future, so the performance is not happening now; it's happening in the future, and the whole thing—the next ten years—is a performance itself. So I think that's just fascinating how it adds this layer of creativity for artists, another medium that they can do. And I think there has been a lot of interesting projects very early on: Terra Zero, I know Web from Jan Robert Lekter, and they are still considered niche for some reason.

Speaker A: Mm-hmm.

Speaker B: It's not a sad thing, but I just think that because it's explained in a very difficult way that I didn't get it myself, and it took me so long to get it, and it took me so long to understand the technical side of it. So I just don't even know how this can be understood by a normal person on the street. And until we reach that way that this can be in a different way communicated, I mean, I was once speaking to a Curator at VNA about Terraforms, and I think it was Radkson who explained that to me. He was like, "Hey, look, if you go to the contract, click on this and then this, then you can export this text file, and then you can copy that to Chrome. It will run the file." It's like, "Oh my God, what do you mean?" And he's like, "It's called base64 or something. It's a JSON file from the image itself, so it runs without any dependencies in any browser. It's just like a long text string based." File, and it means that you can just copy it to your laptop, my laptop, I don't know, something in Vietnam, something in 10 years, and it would just run and it would just show the piece. And I was just showing that to the curator and she's like, oh my God. Like, she was like, what? I was like, yes, you don't really need these machines anymore. I just send you like this string of letters and you'll be able to play it in 10 years, in 20, in 50. And she was fascinated. And I think like the fact that she wasn't aware of it, it shows like why this hasn't gone to mainstream.

Speaker A: Yeah. It doesn't sound like there's a solution to that beyond having really intense one-on-one conversations one at a time, often with a coder or artist with you to kind of also talk about it. So like, how do we get around that? Right? 'Cause I've, I've felt the same. A friend of mine who knows that I have this show and sees the art that I have in the house told me that he explained it to his coworkers that I have a bunch of AI art. It's like, it's not AI art. That's not what it is. So like, even though he fully knows and I've explained to him, he still kind of reduced it to his mind that this is like just AI stuff.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: You know, yeah, yeah. I almost feel like it's an insurmountable challenge. Like, if you have to read a 10-page white paper to understand why an esoteric piece of code is interesting, then how do we kind of popularize it?

Speaker B: On the one side, we don't need to, we shouldn't. I think it's a bit of a tech demo thing if we're trying to over-talk about the technical stuff, and I'm a bit against that. And I think it's still important, especially in AI art, to understand The whole concept of the datasets that go to training, datasets that go for verification later, or like, like the whole concept of how machine learning works. And 2 years ago they wouldn't know. I think this year they would know a bit. And it's just because it just went so mainstream that people read more and more and they just understand. At one moment you don't even have to explain it anymore and people will just, yeah, that's fine. Because another thing is that, do you even care? Like, you know, I don't really know how 5G works.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: But it lets me call my mom on WhatsApp and it's great. So that's how innovations really happen. Like, I think the whole thing about iPhones when they were coming up and they're like, this has 3 megapixels, this one has 4 megapixels. Who cares? As long as pictures are nice and I can send it to Vietnam, it's fantastic. And I think that's what my mom cares about. She doesn't care how many megapixels it has and data and all of this stuff. If she can call her sister, she's happy. And we should reach that level when we don't really care about what's underneath.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: That's something that I think the space is too much obsessed about. Is it on-chain? Is it off-chain? I don't know. If the work is good, it's good. In a way, if it's kind of like, sometimes you look and you feel that it's really moving in a way for you. And then, you know, you learn about it and you learn the concept. Of course, the context of the work is important. It kind of like, you know, goes into the conceptual art in a way. You know, in the right concept, it can be anything that is, it's actually art, but.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Yeah. In terms of disseminating this information. Yeah. I literally had this chat yesterday with one friend. I don't know. I think everyone has a different view on it. Some people want, as you just said, one-to-one conversations. Some people want to do physical shows and many artists are against it. I understand why, because it doesn't make sense really.

Speaker A: Mm-hmm.

Speaker B: We were speaking about Acid, for example. It's like, how on earth am I supposed to show Acid physically? I just can't because it is performative thing on smart contract. It just doesn't make sense to show it. I mean, I can show the JPEGs, but it just takes the whole thing away, the whole concept. But on the other hand, as you said, artists want physical shows and collectors want physical experiences. They want to— I read the book, I want a physical book. It's something in us. And I guess in a few years it would change. My daughter doesn't know what is money and she doesn't know what is bank card anymore. She thinks that people pay with Apple Watches. It's the whole concept of physical money just disappeared, right? There is no such thing anymore. So I think that slowly, slowly we will change in that. I mean, I'm just trying to observe the world. It's very fascinating to see. I mean, the whole thing about online shopping, right? Like, where did it come from? So then just like everyone's buying online and online relationships. I mean, every couple I know is from Tinder and it's great, but it's just—

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: No, it's fantastic. It's just the thing that this is how it works. It works. Now we are talking online. A lot of artists I'm working with, sometimes I never met them. So it's a fascinating shift. And we are like slowly shifting to Web2 even. And how do we shift to like understanding the whole Web3? Unless everyone becomes a hacker suddenly, then I think it will take us a while. But it's a fascinating medium, I think.

Speaker A: Definitely. And I think, you know, we've already mentioned it a couple of times, we should talk about a side, which is running on Verse right now. There's quite a few artists featured here. We— you led with the Jared Tarbell piece, right? But, you know, we've got Leander Herzog in here, Lonli McCarthy, Mathcastles, Travess Smalley, Rhea Meyers, like, obvious, Ivona Tau, like, so many artists that you're working with. I think first we should kind of talk a little bit about what it is for people who maybe haven't seen. I'm gonna do my best to kind of try, and then you'll tell me where I got it wrong.

Speaker B: Mm-hmm.

Speaker A: So each artist is using data in some way through smart contracts using Chainlink. So Chainlink, for anyone who doesn't know, is a protocol built on Ethereum. It's an oracle. So it allows people to ingest data onto the blockchain because the blockchain itself doesn't know anything about anything. It has to have some source of data putting it on. So these are like trusted sources of information that are now being fed into the blockchain through Chainlink. And so artists are using that. So I guess my first question is like, Aside. So you mentioned you're like, it's the Aside protocol. So is that something that You worked with Chainlink to develop, or is that something that Chainlink had already developed and you guys are using? What was the origin of all this?

Speaker B: No, so that's this coming from Distributed Gallery Collective, Alexandre and Olivier, and they are amazing, crazy philosophers/engineers, and they've been working with smart contracts very early on, and the whole concept of blockchain art since 2016. They had like a very controversial project about Richard Prince, very conceptual as well. So like, it was like Duchamp slash Richard Prince on blockchain. And also they had one of my favorite artworks, the Chaos Machine, that you would put banknotes in, it would burn it physically in the machine, like very spectacularly, and then give you a token. And that was very early on. I think like 2018, 2017. So they think about what we said, blockchain and smart contract as a medium from the very beginning when they read about Ethereum, they're like, oh my God, Ethereum is the new computer itself. And they program on top of this, for this, on top of this computer and something that Mavkassel said. So they came up with this protocol that they are writing themselves called Aside. And on few projects we're using Chainlink, on few of them we don't because the data is pretty known. For example, Jared Tarbell, it was about moon phases. It's kind of the data that we can pre-code and we know the exact dates of the moon phases for the next 2 years. But some projects will take data from more live datasets. And the only difference here is that, yes, we can take this data from some websites, but what if the server from that website goes bust and then they go bankrupt and then we lose kind of this thing? So that's why we're kind of connecting that on a better way, which is quite Expensive actually, but we're linking, we're calling the server or like we're calling the API into Chainlink to pull the data and that informs the project to know what to do next. And this information is fed into the protocol and the behavior of the contract is designed by each of the artists and each of them have different kind of vision. I mean, it was a very interesting journey because I've been speaking to a few of the artists on the list before and they were telling me that they are looking for something like that, that they want to experiment with smart contract. I mean, of course you would know like Primavera, Anna Riddler, that this is something that was already inherent in their practice already. And they just wanted to continue with that. So when I heard about the protocol, we went back to them and they were like, yes, this is something that we were looking at. I mean, we compared 2 white papers of Primavera and the Aztec and they were literally very similar but developed in the same time. So it's just like a bit freaky. And then as I said, there were projects before. That were working with the same concept actually. So we're not saying that we're the first people. And it's just very interesting to work with each of these artists and understand how they approach this medium, how they translate that into their own practice and how they translate that to their own interests. And I mean, some of them are fascinating and I think what I'm most excited here is, is kind of this uncertainty about what will happen next year. And in this market, I mean, it kind of worked for us, but of course, you know, in the hot market, it just locks the tradability of the artwork. So it was against the whole, you know, I buy today, I flip tomorrow, but it forces you to wait and to be more conscious about the work and to track it. Or it also introduces this massive, massive uncertainty whether you'll be able to trade at all. I mean, Rhea is unlocked only when Ethereum reaches $10,000. Yeah. So there were jokes it can happen tomorrow, but it can also happen in five years. So it gets this big uncertainty. But I think for me it just explained in a very beautiful and easy, simple way what smart contracts means. Because even like I didn't understood like very early on like what is smart contract. And I think there were loads of talks about smart contracts means that if this happens and this happens, great. But to see it actually. In real life, it's just way easier to grasp the concept. And I think with the Reas projects, I think it is a very straightforward one that everyone would understand. Yeah, what can we do with smart contracts? So when ETH hits $10K, works are unlocked, you can transfer, you can sell, super. But that's exactly the promise of smart contracts that I thought is fascinating.

Speaker A: When I think of smart contracts and like their promises, I think of the initial promise to a lot of artists and creators who came to NFTs, which is like, you're gonna get a royalty on every, every time the piece sells. And like, this is all gonna be, you know, enforced on the blockchain. And then all it took was a couple people to realize that actually I can just message you and we can trade over the counter. We don't have to honor the royalty, or someone will create an alternative platform like Blur.

Speaker B: Mm-hmm.

Speaker A: Where you're gonna go trade here on our contract and you don't need to use the OpenSea contract or the Art Blocks contract to trade. So like, how ironclad is this, right? Like, I think the idea behind it is really interesting. But like, once I mint one of these NFTs through Aside, can I just send it to someone? Or is it literally like stuck? It's literally stuck. Wow. That's awesome.

Speaker B: The only condition that is allowed is you can withdraw from Verse. I mean, we had to do it. So you can withdraw from Verse to your own wallet. But that's because it reads that it's from Verse wallet. But you cannot transfer it to your Ledger. Nothing. It just stuck. And the moment something happens, so for example, Jared, already some of the works are unlocked because there was like this full moon that already happened. You can list them and someone can buy them. So that's, yeah, with the royalties, it's just fascinating. I think what I'm dreaming about, this is my dream project. I thought yesterday that I would love a smart contract that would just airdrop people Bitcoins in the future. It's a mad project, but that's the first time when people would understand what it means because people would be like, oh my God, I just got a Bitcoin. And I think it's, you know, because the moment you, you get airdrop, you're like, but that's a promise that, you know, that will happen. And if it really happens, it's something that, you know, it's unbreakable in a way. And then you can see the results. And as you say, there's like loads of workarounds, but if it's designed in the right way, I mean, so far I, I haven't seen workarounds for Ase to be able to move things. I mean, sometimes I wish we could change stuff. And we're like, nope, we can't.

Speaker A: Well, what do you think the appeal is for artists here? Because obviously, you've got a ton of folks that signed up for this. And NFTs trading, the financialization of it all was such an important part, for better or worse, of the mass adoption event of 2021. It's obviously waned a lot since then. And we've been in this kind of extended down market, or what some people are referring to as a normal market, but it feels like a down market for everyone who kind of got here in 2020, 2021. So like, what's the appeal to artists or even to yourself as like a curator and gallerist to release work like this? That's kind of like, I don't wanna say like necessarily making fun of collectors, but kind of like making them examine maybe their own behavior and their own, like maybe, maybe that's exactly the fun, right? It's kind of like, hey, look in the mirror, guys. Like you're sometimes jerks. Like, so you have to collect this and really think about it. Yeah.

Speaker B: I mean, I had that as well because I collected some work from 0xFFF and, you know, you have to do some, it's called to-do list, funnily, but then it's just like, I was like, no, I have to actually do some stuff, which is quite annoying. But I guess for artists, it's, no, I can't talk for them, but I can talk for myself. And I think it's just very interesting for me that the first time I could work With this type of art. For me, it's the essence of what we call blockchain art. Like it's not NFT art, not crypto art, but blockchain art. And the element of the performance that is happening in the future, not now, is the most interesting for me. So there are 2 aspects. One is just performative medium. And I think, you know, if you like performance or as an artist, or you just like, I mean, artists do like this kind of installation, performance, different types of art. And then you have this new medium that is like, okay, now you can just design this performance and then it's going to happen automatically in the future. Then it's kind of like an experiment. Okay, how can I push the boundaries of what I've been doing before? And another aspect that I think for me is interesting, and it's sort of about the collectives, because I mean, if I look back, there are works that I care I don't really sell them. So, I mean, I don't mind if I have to wait a year to sell them. And I think it is an experiment, a social experiment. And I heard so many comments. I saw that they were like, I won't buy because you can't flip. And literally like directly under my post. And I was like, fine. You don't have to buy every single work that is out there.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: I mean, you go to an art fair, you don't have to buy every single work. You buy the one you like. If you don't like, Don't buy, and I think some collectors are interested, and some collectors you know with the Jared job many collectors told me I don't care that I don't have to take and flip. I just want an artwork from Jared, and with the moon phases it's it's like a fun thing. I'm personally into moon phases, and I think it's it's just kind of like this different element that brings into that. Some artists just are just very very interested. I mean Raya Mayer's Primavera. Maf Kasos, 0xFFF, Anna Riedler, they all have been blockchain artists. So it was kind of, I guess, a natural thing for them to just continue and then, you know, do another project that is inherent with that. And I guess this is more like an experiment project in a way that we just want to see what people will think about it.

Speaker A: You've got quite a few coming together for this experiment. So I wonder, like, can you talk to us a bit about what is the process like for setting up a show like this? Like, do you reach out to artists and say like, hey, do you want to participate? Do you kind of take pitches? How did you get this whole group together and on board?

Speaker B: This is curated by Georg Bak, and we started to chat about this very early on, I guess August 2023. It was refreshing for me because there was not really a date that, you know, we had to have a drop. So it was more Understanding first the concept and what can be done with this and thinking who would fit the project, who would actually make sense here. And of course, you know, who do we want to work with? I have to be very honest here, like in a way. And as I said, like a few of the artists, I already spoke to them about a similar concept that they wanted to do as their next project. So automatically I had to go back to them like, look, I found something that is exactly what you were speaking about. And so let me know if you're interested. So it was just speaking to, of course, curator Georg, who was the main lead to kind of selecting the artist. But the concept came from Distributor Gallery and that's usually how I try to work with. And that's why I weirdly like group shows. And of course, that's not what people would expect financially. Of course, solo drops are better, I guess, you know, the push, the marketing, the communication. But I do like the group shows because They sent a message. And I think for us, it is in a way a group show, but it, it lasts 1 year long. And that's what I also liked about this because it wasn't really, okay, this is all happening in this drop, 12 artists, but it's spread out. So every month we can focus on 1 project. We kind of give them the spotlight. And it was very refreshing to work with such a timeframe that when I speak to artists, I was like, oh yeah, you know, this is going to happen 2025.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Like, I'm not even interested asking you for works now. And I spoke to these artists in 2023. So like, I'm giving them a timeframe of 2 years and it's a completely different approach. It's aside the market in a way. We're not really following. We're just kind of focusing on this protocol. And that's usually how I work, that I throw in, I come up with some weird theme or concept, and then I think who would fit the theme and I invite the artists. It wasn't really seen last year, but my dream last year was a very similar concept, a year-long project on lights. And you could see in some projects that was Pixel Fool, which we did a show in a cinema, and the artwork on the screen was the main source of light. So it kind of, it was playing on this concept. Of course, then Zach Lieberman, A.M. Murakami. So all these artists were invited first for the concept of light. And then of course, however, Yeah. Things happened. It just kind of got scattered. And I'm very stubborn about this. I'm coming back to Paris Photo with the same theme, lights, because I'm obsessed about it. And I just think that it's kind of like tying into virtual photography, which, which I think is quite interesting for a photography fair to not talk about digital photography, but about virtual photography.

Speaker A: Hmm.

Speaker B: Photography that is made by code, literally, like something that Lars Wander is doing. So yeah, so I have like this weird Ideas of a theme, and then I just fight to get the artists that make sense with it. Sometimes I reference their old work, but sometimes it works almost like a commission. So one of the old ones, the magical realism show, it came because I just wanted something very funny for Christmas. And I do like Murakami and stuff. And, you know, we had like very long chats with Yazid about like, what is magical realism? And You know, he was creating work that was specifically for this show. Quibibi also, like, I kind of said, I do want the door. I want the magical door because it just, yeah, the whole thing about like door opening, it just makes sense. So yeah, it just depends who I speak to, how close I am to the artist. Like, can they build a new work for the theme? And I trust them so much that I know it's going to be good. Or I just say, look, I saw something that you already had similar, or maybe you have it.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: a few unsold, and then we're going to put into that. So yeah, it's kind of like, for me, the easiest way to work with coherence.

Speaker A: The lights thing is so interesting. And like, obviously, you already mentioned like, the issues of displaying a lot of NFTs, a lot of digital works, because screens and spaces and what makes sense. And you had a show last year, Hyper Connections, at the School of Digital Art Manchester, where they had this like Enormous. I'm not actually not even sure, like, is that just like a display that they have all year round where they have the whole outside of the building like that?

Speaker B: It's a whole building that was sponsored by European Union. And when I saw it, I was like, oh shit, the building is the screen and they have it all year round. And I've been fighting for that more than a year, actually. I've been trying to get a slot basically. And it came very late notice. They're like, oh, okay, you can get September. And I had 2 months and I went back. I mean, what helped me is that I was talking about this maybe 10 months before already. Like I already hinted that to the artist, like, I'm looking to the screen, I'm applying for this. It might never happen, but something to think of. And when they gave me 2 months notice, I went back and was like, okay, this is happening. I'm sorry, but you have 2 months. And, and it was a lot of stress because the works were different for the screen. Of course, it was 5 screens.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: 6 in the side as well, and they all were connected. So they had to design works that would go from left to right and then down and then underneath the building as well. Karim did amazing, amazing work. And then a different work that was for a release. So they were, all 4 of them worked super hard. And I think that, you know, when I came in person to Manchester and I saw it, like, I think I just loved the feeling because, you know, it was September. So end of September is when students are coming back to the university. So you just see like an army of young people kind of looking up.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And looking into what is some of the projects with generative art, it just, it was just an amazing feeling.

Speaker A: I wanted to bring this up because I wanted to ask you, like, what do you feel is the role of NFTs and digital art in like public performance? Like, we, it hasn't been released yet, but we recorded an episode recently with John Gerard and, you know, he's done Western Flag and, you know, planted a huge screen in the middle of the desert. And he's like very keen on taking like his virtual works and trying to make sure that they are accessible to the public. And, but it is, it's challenging, right? It either takes a lot of money or it takes a space. And then there's the issue of access and who can go see it. So like, how do you imagine the public continuing to interface with stuff like this? Like, do you, how do you think it intersects with NFTs?

Speaker B: My biggest issue is tech demo. I think I don't like displays, like, you know, showing just for the sake of it. And a lot of people will hate me for saying that. I mean, I really don't care. That something is on a massive screen. Like, I mean, ads are on massive screens. I'm sorry, but like ads are. So it is impressive. People like it, but is that something they will remember if more and more projects like that will come? I'm more thinking about if it makes sense, then yeah, then why not? So if the artwork itself is requiring a big display or some interactivity, or, you know, the concept is about public space or like kind of, you know, the engagement of viewers and stuff, then of course that's where it should be and that's where it belongs. But just to slap something on a display, it's not really something interesting. One thing is like, we all have screens. Like, why don't we just play with this? I always dreamed of like having an Instagram show because that's how we consume art. That's how we consume everything. It's like 8 hours daily usage. So what's wrong with it? If that's the max attention you can get from someone, from a collector. But then of course, big screens make great photos. It gets good impressions. So that's, I'll treat that more, again, as I said, like promotional material, unless it makes sense. I mean, there are loads of works that are embedded in the public space and I think that's, you know, that's great if they are commissioned, if they are also backed by some institution, they're trying to send some, I mean, so the great digital art piece, I think the recent one that I saw is the Guggenheim Jenny Holtz. The spiraling.

Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker B: I mean, it's fantastic and it has a message as well, like a very current one, but it's beautiful in a way. I mean, I like it. There's like a lot of like different, you can, it's like for me, I can see like the news kind of, what's the word for that when you have like the ticker? Yeah. Yeah. The tickers. And, but they are actually sending a message and it's actually sight-specific. specific as well. So that's great, that makes sense. But if it's just, you know, I'm gonna put a screen here, and then I'm more like cautious about it. And of course, I work with digital artists, so I myself have to deal with a lot of screens. And we already are encountering loads of issues because not many of them are real-time.

Speaker A: Mm-hmm.

Speaker B: And I think a lot of artists are very specific about the works to be real-time and not just a video on a loop. Sometimes the loop doesn't even work and it just loses the whole point because if the work is generative and it's real time, then what's the point of playing a video? And that kills the whole thing. That makes it artificial.

Speaker A: Well, I'm in big agreement with you that the Samsung Frame is a massive disappointment.

Speaker B: So they didn't tell me. But why didn't they say like, we don't play videos, you have to go to the browser. Yeah. And code it on your flash drive that is formatted in the specific type. But then, yeah, I mean, again, there is no alternative. I mean, there are other screens and whoever I speak to, people are complaining. So I'm going to test different ones. I'm going to test Black Dove as well, because I saw them in Basel and other ones I can't afford, like Danpasses and stuff. And I think we just need to test. But again, it's so not mainstream. It's just for a few collectors on Twitter. When would I see it in everybody's house? You know, it should be just seamless.

Speaker A: That's the future that I hope for because So much of the art that I collect does involve motion and it's that real-time generation. And some of my favorite pieces do that. Some of my favorite artists make work like that, and I can rarely ever share it and talk to people about it. And if I do, it's like, oh, come in here and let me open this up and let me— and just, it's like, it's too many steps. Like, I just want it on the frame, on something that people can see.

Speaker B: Yeah. But also interaction of the work, because some of them are interactive. So I was in the In the Aurea show recently in the Moving Image Museum. And they recreated an old work of hers from, I think, 1996. It was like a chat room that she created herself with her boyfriend at that time. And I think I clicked on something and I broke the whole thing. It was like Windows XP or like, but I literally like was scrolling through the conversation and the whole thing just kind of crashed and I felt so bad. And I'm sure things like that happen constantly. I mean, 4 projectors didn't work. Some touch sensors didn't work. And I'm not saying that in a negative way, but I just saw how difficult it is even for a museum to keep it working for public constantly, like perfectly. And I mean, it's so costly. Why would you bother if you can get a painting and it's cheaper? So yeah, I guess that's just like this barrier of entry and But it's shocking because that, as I said, we already are through this paradigm shift of digital lives. We already am doing everything digital. So why, why, why cannot we just consume this art digitally?

Speaker A: Well, hopefully it's coming soon. Another thing I noticed, you know, looking at your gallery website here, buried at the bottom, it says gallery coming 2024. So are you opening a physical space?

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: Is that something that you can talk— it's on your website, so it's something that you can talk about? Like, what will the space be used for? What are the ideas behind it? And like, also, yeah, why? Because everything you've done so far and everything that we've been talking about is like the challenges displaying digital art and, you know, displays and all of that. So what's the idea behind the gallery?

Speaker B: Because the gallery will not be 100% focused on digital artists. I mean, when I input artists, you know, or I think about the program and I look at it, you don't really know who is a digital artist. And that kind of was my point. I don't care. And I don't think people should care. Like, there is like a show, it's about this. These are the artists. Half of them are digital, maybe all of them. We don't know. That shouldn't be the point. And that I think that we shouldn't be so hellbent on the wording in, you know, on the medium or this whole, this, um, yeah. Because then I just hated shows that were so focused on medium. It's just so lazy in a way that Let's just put 10 generative artists and just call it generative art exhibition. Or let's do an AI show. Shall we do an oil show? I mean, no one is doing that anymore. And I think that was very shocking for me that people just went very, very easy in a way of choosing the works on view. Mm-hmm. And because I'm trying to actually Within different narratives and stories. A, it opens up more flexibility for me to work with a lot of Polish artists, and that will be something that I'm kind of looking forward to, and digital artists as well. But it's less about, well, this is all AI made and, you know, there will be AI if it makes sense for the theme.

Speaker A: Mm-hmm.

Speaker B: And the physical one is yes, because I mean, some of the works will be even sculptures. Or installations, so I do need the space. And the weirdest idea is that it's in New York, which I mean it's really hard to explain why. It was like a very long process. I was supposed to move out from London closer to that side of the world, and kind of I thought, okay, if I'm two hours away from New York, maybe I'll just do it in New York. But then this idea fell through. So, but then already the whole excitement about New York. already started. I'm like, I'm just gonna fly from London and have a gallery there, which is actually quite exciting. I think it's a different vibe and I think it's different energy and I'm very excited for it.

Speaker A: I'm excited for it because, you know, I assume that you'll be bringing artists that normally are only in Europe that we've had in the show. And I'd love to see them come to New York and open something there with you as part of a show. And then we get to, because I, you know, Trinity and I are both New York based. So yeah.

Speaker B: Exactly.

Speaker A: It's great for us. Open more galleries.

Speaker B: Yeah, it's different people, right? Because I mean, there will be more galleries, I guess, in New York coming and you know which ones as well. So of course it's quite exciting. And I think, you know, when I speak to the Polish crew, that's quite massive. I mean, then usually they would be shown in Berlin and I mean, for me would be to ship them and that's the biggest challenge to ship them to New York because Especially if it's sculpture, it's super expensive. But it's a different story that is going to be told. And a lot of artists that I work with are actually based in Europe. So they have this kind of covered in a way. And I think it's a bit refreshing for them also to have this work show in New York. It's a different energy and different people. And I think that's why it's so exciting because I never came for NFT NYC actually. So I'm not really embedded into that. community. I know very few people in New York, so I think that having the space there, kind of the anchor there, helps me to get to know more people that are based there. And I believe that that will be quite valuable for the artists.

Speaker A: Yeah. Is there anything you can say about when it might open, what the first show might be? Is anything coming together yet that you can announce?

Speaker B: I can, but then if it doesn't happen, then I'm That's the classic conundrum.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: But I will say it, what I'm super, super excited about, and honestly, I don't even know if this is going to happen because it's pretty impossible for someone in London to remotely open an entity in New York because I've been struggling for weeks and weeks now back and forth with bureaucracy and admin and all this thing. And it sounds like it's just a mad idea, but if it happens, That I can do it on time, is that I am looking forward to a show with Adi Wagenknecht, and it's an evolution of a work that she had done for a commission for Whitney Museum that is called Believe Me. So you can go on Whitney website and you can see the work as well. It actually was in collaboration with Leander Herzog, which we don't really know. And one of my favorite artists that I've been working with over the last year and a half. And it's the work that was done in reflection to the election in 2016 in the US. And when I thought about, you know, what could be the first show, you know, who are the artists that I want to work with, that I want to put forward. And I thought about, and I, for some reason I thought about this work. I'm like, it was about Trump, that work in 2017. And it's like this broken—

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: screen and time-wise, I'm like, oh my God, the elections are on the 5th of November. So I dream of a show that would be open 2 months at least before, or 1 and a half before the elections. Maybe something will happen. You know, the show ideally would close on the day of elections, but it kind of spires this whole conversation. And I mean, it's been hot already, but this kind of reminds us, it brings us back to that moment in 2016 and then later 2017. It kind of shows, you know, the state of how US has been 8 years ago and then today. And it's the same work in a way. It's not going to be the same work, but it's a new series from that body of work. And it's just fascinating. And for me to be able to work with Adi and Leander on that, it's something that I wouldn't be able to dream of before. And I think it's It's super exciting for me if this can happen. I was thinking recently, I was like, oh my God, how many screens do I need for this? It's going to cost a fortune.

Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, do you want to talk about that at all? Like, what are the economics of running a gallery? I mean, I know we've already gone for a while, so maybe it's too big of a topic, but what does it mean to open a physical space? Like, what does it mean to think about exactly that? Like, oh, we need like a dozen screens and it's got to be a logistical nightmare.

Speaker B: No, it is. It's, I mean, sometimes I feel that a gallery is just, is just Logistics in a way and operations. Like, I mean, prints, shipping, packing, installing, and all of this stuff. I mean, if I think about art fairs, I just see screwdrivers. Like, that was my life running around with Holly, begging people for screwdrivers because we wanted to change something and ladders and stuff. But there is a beauty in it. So recently I curated a show in Gallery Met with Marcel Schwittlick. It's a very young gallery. And it has this really nice vibe that I missed in a way that it's— I mean, of course it will change hopefully in the future and it's actually a good change, but you know, when you're starting as an emergent curator, gallerist, artist, everything you do by yourself. And it was such a nice feeling when we were in the gallery spending the whole day installing the show ourselves. And he invited his friends and the neighbors were coming and asking to help. And some people were kind of taking the stuff from the old show. Yeah. It just created this weird feeling that I missed. I don't see people helping people anymore without like any remuneration. And I missed that. And I thought that it was such a nice atmosphere that, you know, people from around just came and helped and the guys were just drilling and putting the things. I was framing the works myself in the gaps of 42 works that I had to like speed frame because I was I was running to the plane and everything was on the floor. It was a mess, but it kind of, it has this kind of DIY beauty in a way, but this, yeah, I hate this word, but like a community sense. And yeah, and the fair was like that, you know, you come to the fair and it's, there are no floors at all. It's empty. People are like literally putting floors and people just running around and installing their booths. And at 10:00 PM, suddenly magically it just happens. Literally in one day, everything just shows like Unearthed and it just shows up and, and you can run around different booths and ask for help and everyone is so helpful. And then I think that spirit is something that I hope that the gallery will have. The costs are gigantic. They will be, I don't even want to think about it right now. I think it's going to be really, really tough and really expensive. But I know that you also don't have to overpay with a lot of things. The experience in Berlin kind of showed me that. If you want things to happen, they will happen. People will help you. And yeah, I think that, you know, maybe I would need some, I don't know, tables, chairs. Maybe I can run to a restaurant next door and just ask them. I don't, I don't actually have to spend all this money. So yeah, I guess it's going to be a learning process for me. And screen-wise, I don't know. I will have to have a few screens for sure.

Speaker A: Mm-hmm.

Speaker B: But yeah, if it's physical works, I'm happy to drill. And hang them myself. I don't really need to hire people to do that. And I guess people learn that throughout the process as well. I mean, again, packing, you could also outsource that, but you can also just pack the work yourself.

Speaker A: Hell yeah. Well, Mimi, we've been going for a while now, so if you don't have a hard stop, we'd usually wrap up with a couple of rapid-fire questions. The first one here would be, who would you like to hear us interview on the show? I mean, we've already interviewed a bunch of the artists that you've worked with, but Who would you be interested in hearing?

Speaker B: Have you interviewed Warren Free? Because I do want him to disseminate as much as he can. Because, you know, of course he appears on Twitter Spaces. He just had this talk recently. He posts a lot, but Terraforms is a fantastic project. And for some reason, why is it not more popular? Like, it's just shocking. And of course, because this is one of the projects that requires him to explain it because it's very conceptual at its heart. It is getting kind of, I guess, recognition in a way that people are aware of the project. But I think not everyone is understanding what the project is about.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think that's— I mean, I would say I don't even really understand the project, but I see it in the sales feed a lot this year. A lot of people were sweeping that one up and collecting it. But I don't— yeah, I don't know if it was because they're just speculators who think that there's going to be a historical thing for it and like that, and it's important, or if they are legitimately Fans understand it. But yeah, definitely would be down to have— it's 2 people, right, who worked on that project though?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So maybe having them both on.

Speaker B: And have you— I don't know if you've spoken to Primavera.

Speaker A: No.

Speaker B: I think she's fun as well to speak to. She's always a great— yeah, she's crazy. That's why it's so great to hear her thoughts because she, again, she's a thinker and I think that's why You know, I'm fascinated by her practice and I think a lot of things that she's saying, that she's thinking through, it's just very, just makes sense. And understanding how she thinks through these concepts, it's an amazing experience. And I guess one great person who talks very well, and maybe, I don't know if you had him, Mario Klingemann. I also, I invited him to a lecture at our university and he delivered one of the best lectures. Like, I mean, Yeah. Students were like, oh my God, it was so great. And they just, they just loved it so much. And I, because, you know, he explained it in a very fun way as well. Approachable way.

Speaker A: Yeah. We haven't had him yet, but he's definitely on our list. We keep like a running list in our organizational tool. All good recommendations there. And, uh, you know, we also tend to ask people, usually artists, we ask them like what they listen to and stuff while they code. So is there any kind of like music, anything fun that you Want to shout out stuff that you've been listening to recently that you like, that you want to share with the audience?

Speaker B: Sure. Well, I don't know if the audience will want to hear. I like K-pop and V-pop.

Speaker A: Oh yeah.

Speaker B: Sometimes I really want to post about it, but I'm like, ah, no one will actually like it because it's, I mean, again, it's so biased, but I'm Asian and I grew up watching Korean soap operas and I just love the fun energy. From K-pop. It's horrific. I know it's bad. It's just pop and it's nothing special, but it's just so light and funny and just borderline kitsch, silly. And I do think that we do need that sometimes.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: We do need kind of, you know, an upbeat picker. And I just really love V-pop because it's Vietnamese pop and it's a ripoff of K-pop, but they sing in Vietnamese and it's silly. Hilarious because again, I understand the words. But yeah, I've been actually, I just did before our call 8K and I was running to Old Rock. It actually helps me to get through because many moments I was like, I just want to stop and I hate it and it's painful and I don't want to do it. But this again, because we get so much into electro and of course I used to listen to a lot of electro and it puts you in a trance when you run long distance. But when you're like really struggling and you're like, okay, I can't do this next K.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And then you just put like Muse, like an old Muse, then it kind of pushes you. And I think it's the best one. This is ridiculous. The best one that pushed me was Killing in the Rage.

Speaker A: Rage Against the Machine, Killing in the Name of?

Speaker B: Yeah. Yes. And I was like, oh my God, this is like literally my speed was like so fun. And it's very nostalgic. I think that we just, we got into this minimalistic electronic music. A lot, which is very hipster and cool and fancy and fashionable. But I do like an old Muse and I do like a cheesy K-pop, which is not what people want to hear about.

Speaker A: I think people do want to hear it. You know, it helps people get to know, know you, and that's what these interviews are about, you know.

Speaker B: I do send people that. I think the, the furthest I went was I sent Andreas Gysi a Vietnamese pop song, a V-pop song.

Speaker A: Nice.

Speaker B: But then, yeah, I think the last party that we really enjoyed, and that's related to the fact that I said I want to work with Polish artists is when we went to Venice Biennale, we're hanging around with the Polish pavilion people a lot. So I introduced Adi Lander to some of the Polish curators or the people who were working on the pavilion. We kind of get through the back door before the public opening. So we kind of saw how they were setting up the thing. And then of course the afterparty was, I think it was Lithuanian and Estonian. Pavillon collaboration afterparty outdoor in a warehouse. And literally what they were playing was the Slovak-Russian dubstep techno, which was mad, but it was so good. And Ivan came later with Josh as well. And we were literally raving till 4:00 AM and it was just so fun. And I think that's, yeah, having this techno with an Eastern European twist, it's kind of the new vibe now.

Speaker A: Okay. Awesome. Well, lastly, before we wrap up the interview, you know, we've talked about, obviously you've got Aside going for what, like 9 more months at least. You've got your physical space coming. Is there anything else that you want to plug or talk about for the audience to look ahead to from you and from the gallery? Like other shows on Verse? Are you gonna explore other platforms too, potentially for release? Like what's coming up that you wanna preview for everyone?

Speaker B: Only this consideration would come if it makes sense. So if, for example, there is a project that requires a lot of calls to the blockchain and the calls are literally every minute, every hour, and it just will be very costly, they are conversations if we have to move to layer 2. And that is kind of the only moment when I would think that I would have to speak to other platforms, you know, asking Verse to do such a big change in a way. I mean, I know it's not that big, but it just creates a lot of risks, right? That it won't work well during the release and stuff. So it's a bit like what I said before, if it makes sense, then yes. But I do like this fact that, you know, there's Nguyen Wahed on Verse and there is a kind of a clear history of what was presented previously. And then maybe people can get the flavor. And I think that was the most important thing for me to kind of grasp the flavor of that. And it's going to be very difficult because of course, I evolve and the narrative will change, you know, with Aside, for example, kind of like this very big push into blockchain-based art and possibly there will be more projects with that. So that's something that I personally am looking into and look forward to. I think hopefully I'll be able to work on more projects like that. So that depends on the artist and what I really want to, and then if anyone And you and Trini have ideas how we can help, as I said, talk more about this rather than the JPEGs, or is it on-chain or off-chain, but more kind of about the whole concept of blockchain art. Yeah. Kind of increase the awareness of that and hopefully, and then brainstorming and thinking about what are the other channels that we could talk about it? Because of course there's attention span and there are different types of content that can be provided. It can be audio, it can be shorts, I don't know, written, physical shorts. But yeah, I'm really trying to decode what is the best way to share this and bring this into a bigger spotlight.

Speaker A: Well, I mean, the gallery, having a physical space and starting to build more community around it. It sounds like a good step at the very least. I think we've all experienced how difficult it is on social media now to like actually post, even if it's thoughtful and get it out there and get conversation around it. Even alternatives like Farcaster, like it's just, there's less people there. It's harder to really feel like, and even our show, you know, like we have this show and we get great people on and we don't get, you know, 10,000 listeners. You know, it's very, it's hard. It's hard to build a conversation. It's hard to—

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Do it, but maybe it is just one person at a time in physical locations and stuff like that. And I'm looking forward to it.

Speaker B: I mean, some people say it doesn't matter, right? Like the same with your show, like, you know, you just need this 1,000 true fans.

Speaker A: Yep.

Speaker B: And that's fine. And I think, yeah, for, for you guys, I mean, you've written an amazing audience and I think it's a very specific audience of people who are interested in You know, back then in Tezos and in generative art. And I think, you know, that was the party I mentioned in New York that I met Trinity. That was the audience. There were these people, Zancan, Trinity, Emilie, Lars, like, it was like 7 of us only, but it's just like the right people that you want to be surrounded with. And then, yes, of course. So for me, that was just, you know, I'm at the very beginning. So like the first 1,000 true fans, that's the most difficult thing. And then I think after that, Yeah. Hopefully they will bring their friends and family and they will help also to spread the word.

Speaker A: Well, I love it. I'm excited. I think this has been a great episode. I hope you had fun, Mimi. It was great to chat with you. And sorry again, Trinity couldn't be here.

Speaker B: Thank you. Did I reply anything that you wanted?

Speaker A: Yeah, we got through everything. It was perfect. It was perfect. So let's wrap it up there then. That was Mimi Nguyen. Thank you so much for coming on, Mimi. It was awesome to hear about the gallery. Best of luck with the opening. I am excited to attend. And that's it for this one, everyone. We hope you all enjoyed. We'll be back again soon with another episode. All right, bye-bye.

Speaker B: Thank you so much. Always blessed. We're waiting to be signed. We're waiting, always waiting. We're waiting to be signed.