Speaker A: Needing to connect to energy and the energy of something. And, oh, I have an airplane going. Can you guys hear that? I'll wait for a second. Okay. Um, we have this weird thing called the Blue Angels that fly over one weekend a month, and they're doing that today.

Speaker B: So like Hello and welcome everyone to another episode of Waiting to Be Signed. This is a special interview episode, a very special interview episode. I think longtime listeners will kind of be breathing a sigh of relief right now. As we introduce Lisa Orth, who's here today. This is a big day, Trinity. And I have both been really big fans for a long time. We've talked about your work a lot on the show. It's really amazing to have you here. So let's all say hi. What's going on, Lisa?

Speaker A: Hey, thank you so much for having me, you guys. It feels really special to be asked.

Speaker C: I think we feel like it's more special for you to acquiesce and say, Absolutely. Let's get a date. I think in our minds, like one of the most OG OGs of the platform and like, you know, you've just been such a consistent person releasing art here and it's just amazing.

Speaker B: We'll ask you more about this later, but you're often an artist that we cite as having like instant recognizability across your drops, even as they differ. There's always this ability to be like, oh, that's a Lisa Orth piece. And we'll, we're gonna get to that for sure. But, um, I think first, you know, For people who may not be as familiar with you personally, Lisa, if you could maybe give us a little bit of your background history, leaning more towards art and your journey towards—

Speaker C: Or not.

Speaker B: Or not. Yeah, whatever you wanna say, of course. But totally tell us a little bit about your journey through art to NFTs, FXHash, crypto, you know, just kind of catch us up on who you are.

Speaker A: I grew up in Washington State, one of those people, you know, when you talk about artists and you ask them, oh, have you always been an artist? It's like, oh yeah. I've always drawn. I've always known that I was going to go into a creative field. That seemed to be my destiny from early on. I wanted to go to art school and I wanted to be a painter. And, but my family was really working class and we never had enough money for anything. There was certainly not enough money for me to get put through art school. So I decided I was going to like investigate graphic design because I thought if I become a graphic designer, Number one, I could design record covers for all my favorite bands. That was like, I was obsessed by music. And number two, I could just, you know, do graphic design during the day and then be a fine artist at night. Went to school for graphic design, got out, and immediately here in Seattle, I like looked up all the people that I thought were cool graphic designers and music type of stuff, because I was really like, I gotta be in this field. And I landed, landed a job at what I thought was the coolest place to be, which was the music magazine here in town called The Rocket. Through working with them, I was a graphic designer for them, eventually became an art director for them. I ended up getting asked to do some work in local record labels. The biggest one probably would be Sub Pop Records. So through them, I ended up being the first art director for Sub Pop, designed all their early releases, including the most Well-known Nirvana ended up designing their first couple releases and designed their logo, which everybody knows to this day. Did design work for a really long time here in Seattle. Worked for a lot of other people. Started my own design firm, and when I started my own design firm, it was like I'm gonna say it was like 1998, and it was at the time where everybody was just kind of getting started. Like oh, everybody needed a website, but nobody had a website. And I had this friend and she had just taken this course on HTML and she needed somebody to like do some design work for it to help her for her final project. So I was like, oh yeah, I'll do some design. And she like came over to my apartment and we had computers and stuff and we were sitting there and I was like learning a little bit of HTML. Anyway, we ended up starting a design firm together and we specialized at that time in like doing websites for people. That's where I kind of dipped my toes into what's code, you know, like I would help her writing HTML code and some early JavaScript and CGI stuff. Had a graphic design career in a really successful business for a long time until I realized that I actually, something was off. I couldn't pinpoint it for the longest time. And then I realized I'm sitting in front of a computer for like 8 hours a day, every single day. And I felt a Crazy, crazy disconnect. I really felt like I wasn't part of the real world anymore. And after realizing that that's what was making me feel so weird, I just told my friend, I was like, I gotta quit this. Like, I don't know what I'm gonna do, but I'll find something. Who knows? But I can't just sit in front of a computer and be a creative director anymore. So I walked away from that, didn't know what I was gonna do, started DJing. Had art shows during this whole time I'm making music. I mean, during the whole course of like this whole thing I'm talking to you guys about, I always did fine art, painting, drawing, illustration, made music, was in a whole bunch of bands, toured with bands, had my own record label. Always something involving art and something involving music was really prominent in my life. DJ'd, supported myself doing that for a while. And then I just discovered tattooing. And when I discovered it, it was like this. Crazy, like, light bulb went off in my head of, oh, this is like artistic, but it's connected to a person and it's very, very real and it's very, very permanent, which is really interesting now compared to generative art, which is also very, very real, very, very permanent. But became obsessed by tattooing, did tattooing up until COVID hit really, and was super focused on my tattooing career. Had moved to LA from Seattle. And, uh, I couldn't work anymore, like all the other tattooers who got shut down during COVID And I found myself with all this time, you know, for me, the time was really joyous at first. I was like making all this digital music and I was doing paintings and all this stuff. And, um, I got kind of sad for a bit based on how much fun I was having when all these people started dying. And my sister here in Seattle is a respiratory therapist at a at a major hospital. And talking to her really like brought down to like reality for me how real COVID was. And it seemed unfair of me to be having so much fun during a time when there was so much sorrow. Anyway, I ended up moving back to Seattle. And at that time, I just discovered NFTs. And it was another like joyous Discovery for me, like with tattooing. Here was this thing that I mean I've always loved making art, and I've always been super interested in technology. I remember back in the early '90s, I got my very first computer, which was an Apple Mac Plus Two or something like that. Cost me like three thousand dollars used to get it, but I was like spent so much time on that thing. I just couldn't believe how cool it was. So I've always loved technology. I've always loved things that are new. If I can wake up every day and like discover something new, that for me is like a great day. Like, I just always want to keep learning and seeing what else is out there. So for me, NFTs, when I discovered them and realized that digital art could also hold value and could be traded and people could support artists with secondary sales, like, that to me was a no-brainer. Like, I really wanted to dive as deep into that as I could. And I remember reading this, I think Joanie Lemercier was interviewed in New York Times Magazine about NFTs or just New York Times. And he was talking about the environmental impact of Ethereum and mining. And he was mentioning Hic Et Nunc. And so I like immediately was like, oh, Hic Et Nunc, you know, discovered that. And that was the thing I felt most excited and passionate about. And for me, like, I love discovering new things. And if somebody mentions something, I am super, super into just being like, what is this? I want to mess around with this. That's how I discovered fx hash early on too. You know, like, I'm somebody who loves jumping in when something's new. So I feel like that's a relatively good overview.

Speaker B: No, I mean, and there's, and there's so much opportunity because I think we'll definitely link to it in the notes. But if anyone checks out the documentary on you on YouTube that kind of focuses a bit more on the music side. And there's this great scene where you're just kind of sitting there, I think, for 10 minutes naming every music project chronologically that you've been a part of. And it's pretty—

Speaker A: I couldn't remember them all. And yeah, what about this one? I was like, oh yeah, that band.

Speaker B: Oh yeah, that one. Yeah.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: I'm a little curious on the NFT side because crypto and NFTs are so polarizing. And this is a conversation we have a lot With within the community here, because like Tezos doesn't have those ecological problems and it just seems so much more wholesome. But at the same time, a lot of people when they hear crypto and they hear NFTs, they think animal pictures on Ethereum and scams and stuff like that. So I wonder, have you, as you've transitioned into becoming an artist who puts their work out as NFTs, have you had A lot of resistance or friction, like amongst your social group or people that you've talked to about it, about like what you're doing? And have you found success in kind of talking to them about it and convincing them that it's actually kind of cool and wholesome? Or is it challenging?

Speaker A: You know, the struggle is true. Like it's still a struggle. When I was very first just diving into the Hic Et Nunc and putting out some first NFTs that were just sort of digital things, I was so excited about it, and I was like, I didn't know anybody else at the time who was into NFTs, and I was like trying to get my friends into it. And I'd be like, hey you guys, I just minted my first NFT, do you want a copy? And they'd be like, why would I want that? And I'm like, oh no, like it's just, you know, it's something I can give you. Like, I minted at minute 25. And they're like, well, okay, send it to my phone. And I'm like, oh no, I'm gonna make you a wallet. I'll send it, I'll set you up a wallet with your Gmail address and Kukai. So there's all these people out there right now who like have all these pieces. They'll never, they'll never do anything with them. I just kept trying to get people excited about it and nobody seemed to care, you know? And then we went through the stage of my friends just like, they don't even ask me what I'm doing anymore. They don't ask me what's up or what I've been up to. They don't care. They don't want to hear it. My girlfriend actually started off that way. And then I started showing her photographers that were on Hic Et Nunc, and she's a photographer and she does film only. And I got her into it. Like, she started minting some pieces and putting her photography out there. She's like way more into other stuff now, but she understands what I'm involved in. She's super supportive about it. I took my sister to an opening at the Seattle NFT Museum recently, and she Does not like me talking about NFTs. She's a little bit into crypto, but took her down there and she fell in love with one of the artists. And she saw this guy's work that was in their thing and she just started asking questions about it. He was there, so she got to meet him. And I was asking her questions like, okay, so this piece, if you saw it on a canvas versus how it is displayed on this digital screen, do you think you'd feel differently about it? And she's like, no. No, not at all. So it was nice to have like a breakthrough and talk to her a little bit about like, see, it's not all stupid cartoon characters. Like there's art that you can fall in love with that you like. And so now in the back of my head, I'm like, okay, maybe I will like buy her a piece from this artist that she loves for something, you know? So yeah, it is a real struggle being able to find some connection with what I'm so passionate about with just my regular group of friends.

Speaker C: That really resonates. And also, it's so cool that you're able to kind of convert somebody, like, just on the basis of the art alone.

Speaker A: One at a time, I'll get them all.

Speaker C: Anytime somebody comes in town, just take them to, like, the Seattle NFT Museum, make a sale, whatever. One of the things that you were talking about earlier, just, like, specifically maybe around, like, the ecological thing to a certain extent, like, people not, like, really being into the NFTs, but also Like the comparison between that and what you were saying about like specifically the royalties and being able to support an artist over the long term. One of the things that, you know, you're known for is like, again, that connection to the music scene and like very much in like that vein of punk, grunge, riot grrrl. And that comes with like a certain ethos.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: And the blockchain world can be like hyper-capitalistic and corporatist in that way. But it also enables some of these like other arenas of collectivist thinking. How does like that ethos kind of inform what you're doing today and just being excited about Tezos? That was a long question.

Speaker A: That was a great question though. Like something that I, I really love about the Tezos community. A weekend ago or whatever, I was speaking at the Seattle Art Fair and it was a a panel put on by the Seattle NFT Museum, and I was talking beforehand with a bunch of people who were at the Seattle NFT booth. And the question that people kept asking me was, so why Tezos and not Ethereum? And I found myself saying over and over again, it's really about the community. The community is so strong. The amount of experimentation that I personally see on this platform with this blockchain where it doesn't cost you $200 to try something new, you know, to mint it or whatever. I feel with the Tezos NFT community, it has more of that punk rocky feel. It has more of that like feel of like, let's just do some weird shit and see what can happen based on it. And I guess for me personally, like whatever I end up doing has that sort of vibe as an impetus to whatever project. Like, I don't need to sell NFTs to pay my rent. I do other things for that. And I really try to not look at the NFTs I put out as a commercial money-making thing. I don't know if that comes across or not. But I think when you start having that capitalistic perspective of like, I'm doing this thing for money, and I have to make this or that or whatever from it, There's nothing wrong with that for sure, but for me, I'm viewing this as art. Like, I want my art to be coming from a place of me finding joy in discovery and experimentation and trying new things and connecting to other people who my art resonates with, you know? And the Tezos community seems really to be a place that fits all of that for me.

Speaker C: I think that's a great answer. And I think one of the other things that we've wanted to talk to you about is, you know, I think we kind of see you as this early adopter of sorts. Like you're one of the first artists on fx hash. I think you were one of the first people to really make 8BitDo a thing. And even like typed, which is something that I don't think either of us have experimented with. You find all of these things before I feel like anybody does. Why is that and how is that? And just—

Speaker A: I really don't know. Like I, I try not to spend all day on Twitter or anything like that, but I look at things and if there's something somebody's talking about that I follow, I'll be like, what's that? Like, even if someone's talking about writing Michelson contracts, anything I don't know about, I want to know. And maybe that's it. And I'm not afraid to dive in so much as, as long as I feel like whatever platform it is has a positivity behind it. Like there have been some things I've just looked into, some new platforms, and I'm like, "Ooh, this seems scammy," or "Ooh, this seems to be all about commercializing blah blah blah blah." Like no thank you. But if I explore something and it seems like it's fun and new and coming from a good place, and the people putting it on are good people, like oh my god, I'm gonna jump in for sure.

Speaker B: I think that's what makes FX hash such an outlier. You know, even people who flip NFTs, of which Trinity and I both have, right? Like sometimes in order to keep collecting, you have to sell stuff and that's just a part of it. Everyone here for the most part just feels so like genuinely interested in the growth of the platform, in what the artists are up to and meeting them. I mean, like, and the artists too, the fact that you and all these other artists have just come on our show and they want to share and they want to like be a part of the community, right? And it's just like a really special thing. I think, and both of us, you know, totally avoided NFTs in our crypto journey until fxhash, basically. Like none of it appealed to us until this. And like, so I think our journey is kind of similar to yours in that sense of like something about this resonates in a way that that ETH stuff doesn't. The ETH stuff might be great for making money, but that's not everyone's objective all the time.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker C: The price points, especially at fxhash, especially way back in November and December. You could explore, you could experiment, you could put $10 in, $20 in, and just, that is just so much awesome work that you're able to collect.

Speaker A: I mean, even right now, you take 100 Tezos or $100, whatever you can get, there's so much art that is amazing on there. It costs next to nothing. And I don't want this to be how we live our lives in a totally virtual way, but But like, I feel like you can figure out what the future is going to be like by looking at people who are like in their teens or their early 20s. Your passport to the world is your phone. Like, why would we not start having art collections on our fucking phones? Like, this is how it's going to be. Like, the digital is going to be as important or more important than the physical. I mean, you always have someone who wants to put on that old 180-gram vinyl record and have that experience. Yes, I never want to give that up, but I also feel there's so much to embrace in this world that has yet to be defined. And I dare anyone to try to define it moving forward. It's just so exciting to be a part of it so, so early, you know?

Speaker B: You've talked a little bit about artists and how good the art is here. Is there anyone that you collect that you kind of want to shout out? I'm curious to know, like, who does Lisa Orth like on the platform?

Speaker A: Oh my God, I like so many people.

Speaker B: Not financial advice, of course, as we always say.

Speaker A: It's really hard for me because there's people that I like will buy whatever, you know, whenever they put it out. I will say that lately I have been on a little kick collecting Riis, or R-I-I-I-S. That's been my last thing that I'm like, oh, I want to get everything that they have because something about it is just super appealing to me. And it's weird because the very first time I saw it, I was like, nope, don't like that. And I found that in my entire life, if I see something and I have a— right away I have a feeling like, ooh, I really don't like that, it actually means that I love it So, so much, but I just haven't discovered how much I love it because my reaction was so intense negatively that I end up loving it. And that's what happened with their work. Right away when I was like, I don't really like it, I was like, hmm, you know, you probably love it. And then turned out I did. So that's been my recent, recent thing I've been trying to collect.

Speaker C: I also like that you can't really figure out what anything is called because it's just emoji, emoji, emoji, which is also kind of like the most Gen Z thing on the world, like on the planet.

Speaker A: Oh, it's great.

Speaker C: But like, I do really, really love, um, the one that is like water embroidered with patches.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker C: Uh, it's like the one that's like really blue and like super, like the, the pic, the preview image for it is like really blue and just—

Speaker A: The Water Peak Sewing Kit or whatever it's called.

Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We've seen like a lot of really cool new people coming in over the last few months and I think just there's so much momentum behind this.

Speaker A: I feel like I follow so many people on Twitter and anytime I can happen to catch a drop by somebody who I follow, because everybody I follow, I genuinely am like, ooh, their work's so cool. But also these days I'm trying to like stop having this like FOMO thing where it's like, okay, I'm telling myself, if I happen to catch a drop by these people that I like, Yes, I'll go all in and get what I can. And if I don't manage to catch that drop, it's okay. I don't need to collect everything that I like. I can go with the flow. And I try to stop myself from becoming too obsessed about things. I think one thing for me that is really positive as a creative person in the world, which I'm sure a lot of other creative people have this same trait is I have an ability to hyperfocus and to just get pretty obsessed by things if I, if something catches my attention. And that can be great, especially if you're hyperfocused on creating something. But I feel like I'll reach a point where I realize that I need to back off and have a little bit more balance. And I've found that collecting NFTs for me, finding that balance has been really It's been a challenge and I'm still working on that, you know? Yeah.

Speaker C: I think that's something that Will and I both experienced a little bit. The first few months that FX hash was out, like it was one of those things where we were afraid to go to sleep at night. Like I, I know that you felt this, Will, because we talked about it.

Speaker B: I always set alarms cuz the, the cycles then would rotate and I mean, they still do rotate now, but sometimes you just have a cycle where it was just 8 hours and it was entirely while you were sleeping. But yeah. You knew that from Twitter that maybe someone was dropping something and it was gonna be like 3:00 AM. And having a baby helped me get over that.

Speaker A: Having a girlfriend who I would wake up by being on my phone at 2:00 AM and 4:00 AM and 5:00 AM. And I'd try to be all quiet and make sure the light didn't, but I was there on fxhash on my phone collecting pieces. 'Cause I was like, I'd go to sleep and I'd dream about somebody dropping that I wanted to get their stuff.

Speaker C: Mm-hmm.

Speaker A: And she would wake up and she'd be like, babe, what are you doing?

Speaker C: And I just— Were you on your phone?

Speaker A: I was so embarrassed about my behavior. I was like, she, and she would be like, what were you doing last night? I was like, oh, Jerome Harer, he was dropping something. I just really wanted to get his piece. He's in Germany and I knew he was still gonna be off the— it's 4:00 AM was only time. She'd just be like, you're obsessed. Yes, I'm obsessed. Trying. That was hard too, those first couple months. I don't— who got sleep?

Speaker C: Definitely not me.

Speaker B: But Trinity, do you feel like doing the podcast has actually helped you work through some of that as well? I kind of feel like creating something in the space helps exert that energy.

Speaker C: Like, I definitely feel a lot more balanced with it than I used to. I think before it was just like this, like, crazy manic energy of If I'm not looking at the release feed and or Discord at like the same time, like I'm, I'm going to die. Like it was like that level of like supreme anxiety around missing things. I think it's definitely changed a lot. I don't know if it's just because of like more exposure. It's like less like intense. Maybe it's like after beta came out and you, you were able to kind of put projects behind like a time lock. And so you, nobody actually just releases something like spontaneously anymore.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: Which I really miss sometimes. That was kind of like the magic of the platform is just like being there and seeing like, oh my gosh, this happened. Rather than like, okay, I know that this is going to happen in exactly 1 hour and 13 minutes. I will set an alarm. It'll be fine.

Speaker B: It's still exciting, but it's different kind of excitement.

Speaker C: Yeah. The creative energy, like, do you still feel like that's flowing with like within fx hash? Because I think that you've really only had A Burroughs quote come out since beta, right?

Speaker A: Yeah, for sure. I think that when the site went off because they were updating and ready to go into beta, that was so horrible for me. I was just like, oh my God, what am I gonna do?

Speaker C: 8BitDo!

Speaker A: And 8BitDo came out and I was like, I just, I always, always, always need something to channel my creative energy into. And those times that I don't have it, That I'm like forced to go camping and I like didn't manage to bring things to draw. I'm like, oh, what? Like, what do I do? So yeah, ApeBadoo came out right at that time and I was like, boom, I'm there. I'm in it. I'm all in, you know? And I think that time off was also a time for me to be thoughtful as well and to say like, okay, for me, my journey learning code I started a little bit back in the early, like the late '90s when I was doing the business with my friend and I was like learning HTML and some JavaScript and CGI, whatever. For me getting back into that, I didn't just start looking at p5 and being like, oh, I know this. Like, it's been me like obsessively just every day learning new things, every day trying to like going to bed and in my mind, like I find myself dreaming about I'm writing code, trying to get something to work and I can't get it to work and, oh, I don't know what I'm doing, you know, that kind of thing. There's so much to know. So like the break with fx hash, yeah, I was doing art that wasn't code-based, which felt a little bit of a relief because I am really hard on myself about needing to, I want to be really good at things even when I first start out and it's just, you can't be. So I think I was like, Take a break, do some other stuff, be more lighthearted a little bit. And then when other people started releasing on fx hash again, I was like, you know, like, I really need to put some more time into stuff. And I probably have like 10 or 15 different sketches that could have been released back then, but I was like, no, I'm just going to keep learning more things. You know, it was a good time for me to be more reflective about what I was doing and also just try to learn more, you know.

Speaker B: We went down that journey at the beginning of the podcast. One of the things that we kind of thought about was like doing these monthly or pseudo-monthly token drops as a way for people to support us. And part of that was like learning p5. And I definitely had at least one dream about restructuring code for not even a project that was complex, right? Because for us, it's like, The tokens were just a way for people to support us. They're not necessarily meant to be high art or express anything other than appreciation for the show. And but it is such a different skillset of, even if you're mathematically inclined, it helps, but there's such a different way to wrap your brain around it. And it's another, another thing that having the baby has made it difficult to keep up with, but luckily we've had other folks come in and help us and.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Donate time to encoding essentially in collaborations. But I mean, Trinity, I know for you, right, too, it's like, it's hard. It's really, really hard to pick up something new like this.

Speaker C: Yeah, definitely. Especially like on top of podcasts and anything. And like, as you said, like you wanna be able to like express the things that you have in your brain in a way that is like really, really awesome. And when you just like don't have like the literal language skills in order to do it, it can be incredibly frustrating. That's kind of how I feel about it. And I like work adjacent to code, you know, I work like within like the digital agency space. And so I can work around making CSS edits to a website, whatever. It's like the most basic thing on the planet, but whatever.

Speaker A: I just had a realization that when you were talking about things being difficult at first or things being easy for you, I feel like something that has been in my life very consistent is if I find something that I really like and I try to dive into it, I'm used to being able to do anything artistically very, very easily. And with learning how to do generative art, I feel like I have the same challenges as I had when I started tattooing. I had an anticipation of being really great at it at first. I know I have an artistic eye and mind and can do things creatively, but just what you have to learn, just as you said, to have the things in your head be able to come out on the medium. For, with tattooing and with generative art, it's both been so, so challenging. And whenever I find something that provides me with that challenge, that's basically like, that's when I get hooked on it. And that's when I know I've found something that I'm going to be doing for a while because it's special to be so challenged.

Speaker C: You know, you're not going to be defeated.

Speaker A: I will not be defeated. Like, you know, if I can draw something really easily, who cares? But if, if, if something's challenging me that I might be defeated, I'm gonna hook onto that. And you're gonna find out that— I say this to myself— you're gonna fucking kick that. You're gonna kick this thing's ass. You'll figure it out somehow. This won't defeat you. Yeah, it's that attitude that I have that I kind of love when I get that from something, you know.

Speaker C: I feel like that is also like very punk rock in a way where it's just like anything that there's like any sort of adversity, it's like, yes, we're going to lean into that.

Speaker A: Totally.

Speaker C: And love it and enjoy it. Yeah.

Speaker A: Don't tell me what I can't do because I'll prove you wrong. Yeah. That kind of thing.

Speaker C: No, it's just funny because, um, my wife is somebody who's like, was very much in the punk rock scene when she was in her teens and that's 100% the energy. She does jewelry. If like, I can't make something that's made out of metal, like in our tiny apartment, well, I'll find some way to get the exact same effect somewhere else. And it's just like the late nights of like experimenting with making silicone molds and like pouring like low heat metals or making things outta clay. And it's just like the constant time and energy just to kind of achieve what you're looking to do. It's, it's just so funny. Whereas, I don't know, I'm more of like the vein where it's like, I'm all about the flow state, being in that zone where it's like a little bit challenging, but not too challenging. You know, you're going to succeed. I think that you're a much better way of being, I have to admit.

Speaker A: If something isn't driving me a little crazy to figure out how to do it, it's almost like it's not worth it. I don't want things to be too easy.

Speaker C: There is one question that this relates to in my mind. It's a tangential topic. It's so slightly off topic, but last month we were talking a lot on the show, and I think talking with people in the community about the idea of creating things that look like they've been done with paint, or like doing things that like, oh, this is like a really great landscape painting that you've made with code. And you had a tweet that was talking about the need to create new things with like our new technologies and like leaning into what these technologies can do.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: And so has the type of art that you've been trying to create through code different from what you might do normally? And it'd be great if you could kind of talk about that philosophy a little bit.

Speaker A: I've been around doing art for a long time. Like, I'm 55 years old now. I've done a lot of different things and things I always, something I always think is really important in all the different mediums that I try or things I become a part of. I feel that as an artist, of any sort, in order to remain relevant, in addition to contributing something in a voice that you feel is authentically yours, that's the first thing I find to be important. But number 2 is connecting with the energy around you. I think if I look back in the past at different art movements that I'm inspired by or things that I find to be really interesting, It's all people who are taking in the energy surrounding them and channeling it through themselves into their work. And if I look at what the energy is happening today, it's this digital metaverse blockchain. This is what's new. This is what's exciting. And this is what is literally changing every single thing about everyone's life, whether they know it or not. And I think that if, as an artist, you're not taking that energy and the tools that are current to the time that are available to you on your phone for free, like anybody can do this. The cost to get into this is like, not like, oh, I have to spend $200 on oil paints and oh, I had to get— no, you can do this for free. Why are we looking To the past to change the future. I don't know, that's assuming that as an artist you want to change the future or you want to change something. But I think that embracing the tools for now, embracing the energy for now, that is how we can give something that has meaning for now. I understand it takes, uh, can take a lot of skill potentially to like recreate an 1800s impressionistic landscape in code. That's awesome. That's cool. I'm not impressed by a band that can play Beatles songs and sound just like the Beatles. I don't actually care that you have the technical skill to recreate something. It's cool that you do. I don't want to do that because I don't want to recreate things that have already been done. I want to see what I can do that hasn't been done. Not to say that my artwork is breaking boundaries of this or that, but I'm looking forward at least in what I'm doing. And maybe I'm taking the perspective of many, many decades of art and design and music and blah, blah, blah. And I'm channeling it through the work I'm creating, but I'm looking forward and I'm using tools that are relevant. And I do think that's important.

Speaker B: Lisa Orth, welcome to the lumberjack club. I call myself the lumberjack on the show because often I'm like semi-critical or in disbelief of the number of like naturalistic flowers and woods and stuff. And I'm just like, guys, like, why is this 100th time we've seen this style now again? It's like being traded 10x above mint and like all this stuff. I just, it's a bit tongue in cheek, of course, but, uh, I think—

Speaker C: Not entirely.

Speaker B: I, I, I was, I was, um, browsing your collection too, and I didn't see too many trees in there. I saw some bugged forests, but I think that was about it. So.

Speaker A: I, I have a, I have a couple Zancans. And I love, I love their work. It's so beautiful and it definitely appeals to me in an aesthetic way and it gets me. But what's also weird too is like a lot of that work that you're talking about, if you go to look at the work that I do in my tattooing career, the majority of work that I'm doing for people, it's landscapes and it's nature scenes and it's trees and it's animals and it's all Executed in a style that's like etching or woodcut. So it's very similar to that stuff. And in looking at the art that I do digitally and generatively, I do not want to recreate that same artwork that I do in tattooing. Like, that's the last thing I want to do is the same style in another medium. So it's not for me.

Speaker C: Are there any sorts of things that you're looking to be able to do if you could Try to like convey anything through code-based art.

Speaker A: It is more about experimentation and what can happen. I'll usually start writing like sketches and I'll just say to myself, what don't I know how to do very well? And I'll watch some Coding Train or I'll go to just a reference page on p5 and I'll just see something I don't really know very much about. And I'll be like, okay, today we're going to learn about this. And I'll just start writing some really basic stuff. And then once I kind of have my head wrapped around a concept that I'm trying to learn, I'll just say, okay, how can we really break them? How can we like take this, add other weird things, mess it up? What happens if we put this here? What happens if this parameter just is like an insanely large one and this parameter is an insanely tiny one? What if we just throw random things in and See what happens, because to me that's the magic of generative art—not having something set in my brain that I'm trying to execute, but more going on an exploration, an adventure of like, what can I discover? What can show up? And when you're doing generative code, sometimes you'll just change a parameter, and then suddenly you're like, whoa! What just happened? Like that is looks nothing like the 500 iterations I did before. Something changed that. To me, I know it's not magic, but it seems like magic, you know? And that's what I love about code are those surprises. So I'm just trying to learn and be surprised. And when I find something that surprises me and I have sort of this like visceral reaction to it, that's when I know that this is the direction that I'm exploring right now or whatever.

Speaker B: We hinted at this earlier in the episode, but there's definitely a vibe to your work that's instantly identifiable, I think, on the platform. And a big part of that are the palettes you use, even all the way back to like Between Stations and Hexflex, carrying forward to Aether Astral Loom. There's this uniqueness to the colors that you use. They're, they're so yours. I would love to hear about how you first developed those palettes. And, and clearly you, you love them because you've carried them through to so many of your works here.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Even as they've ebbed and flowed and changed in style. Like, what is color to you? How did you arrive at those palettes? And, um, are we gonna be seeing a departure from them maybe? I mean, I noticed that a Burroughs quote really deviates there. And, you know, obviously there's some new work coming from you in your sketchbook wallet that I think we have no idea what to expect from that. So—

Speaker A: I think that particular, like, sort of signature palette that we're talking about That kind of came about when I was doing Between Stations, and I always love to listen to music while I'm doing anything creative. And I've found that if I listen to music that doesn't have vocals to it, it's really, really helpful to me. So I have different playlists I'll put on, just some weird electronic drones and stuff. And then I love old jazz, and I was— remember, I was like listening to old jazz While I was like doing the coding for the Between Stations. And I realized that what I was coming up with felt really musical to me. And it just started to have a connection. And like that jazz playlist probably went on for like 40 hours or something on Spotify. And I was like, wow, there's a real connection here. I don't know if I'm subconsciously putting this into the coding or what, where the relationship is going to. But once I kind of realized that this jazz element existed for me, I felt very inspired to go look at a lot of old album covers. And I wanted the colors— I hadn't come up with the palettes at that point. I was just messing around with random colors. And I was looking at all these old album covers and I was like, okay, I'm gonna specifically try to craft this palette that kind of has a feel of these old records, you know? And I spent quite a bit of time really narrowing down what exact colors went with each other, gave me the vibe I wanted, was like the perfect off-white that reminded me of my very first car that was a '64 Ford Fairlane. I was like really trying to find these perfect combinations of things that gave me the feeling I wanted when I looked at them. And when I got it, I was like, I just love this. You could put any of these colors together and I'm going to love all of it. So I don't know, it just, it just was something that feels good to use for me. And speaking about the different color palettes in a Burroughs quote, I like to keep things around that make me feel good, that I've created, that are aspects I can use. And I understand through being in the worlds of graphic design and advertising that subconsciously people do look for, if they like an artist's work, a piece that is familiar. I try not to like focus on those sorts of marketing and branding things, but they're in my brain and I'm never going to be able to not have them in my brain. So I think it's nice to continue to utilize those palettes in the future, but also like with the Burroughs quote, I was like, all right, I'm going to make some palettes that are weird and dayglowy, like I have a lot of different color things that I really, really like. And yeah, bringing different elements into stuff is definitely something that you're going to see more of in the future. When I made the sketchbook account too, I kind of wanted to create this avenue for myself that perhaps felt a little bit freer of like, maybe you'll see these palettes at the beginning of one, maybe you won't see them in the future, maybe you're going to see things that you don't recognize Recognize as being mine, but also with this particular account, I am not going to care. I'm going to specifically not care about if things go with other things or if there is a way of it all connecting in because I feel like artists can in their own minds create these limitations for themselves based on reactions they have to their work, input that people have given them, and. When someone tells you over and over again, oh my God, I love this, this is so great, or these palettes or this or that, in a way, maybe I feel a subconscious need to include them because people like them. You know, you want to make people happy. If people connect with and resonate with your work, you want to keep that up. But also, you don't want to find yourself in a position when you're second-guessing your choices based on what you think people might like or have liked in the past.

Speaker C: So it sounds like the sketchbook account might be the way to get to the most authentic you.

Speaker A: Oh, I don't know. Maybe, right? Like, there's so many versions of all of us that we have that we— it's all like, what are you going to choose to present to the world today? Maybe that's the me that you're going to find tries to care a little bit less about what the person who is viewing it thinks. The one thing about getting older is I really am starting to value more and more that I find myself caring less and less what other people think about my choices. And I want to embrace that more, but it's always a really difficult thing to do.

Speaker C: I love that. It just makes me think about like, what will be the things that make your quote unquote regular account versus the sketchbook? Like, what will be the criteria? I wonder.

Speaker A: I think that with the main account, I think what you're gonna find more in there is concepts that I'm exploring that maybe took a lot more time to really figure out what's a leap forward in what I'm doing. Has connections to the past, perhaps with my aesthetic, but is also like showing you something That's that maybe hopefully is a little bit different, or that I feel like is a bigger leap, or maybe I feel like has more importance for me. And that sketchbook thing, I want to have that be low editions. I want to have maybe just continuing Dutch auctions where the ending price is super affordable. I respect artists who charge $200 for their work. 100% do it. That's great. But I want also something where it's like. Yeah, maybe you can pick up an edition of this for 5 Tezos or 3 Tezos. I think that's important too, especially as an artist, as your work gets more in demand and gets bigger. Like, wouldn't it be nice to always have something where you can offer it to people? I'm not going to announce the drops necessarily the exact time. I'm not going to have like no reserve lists on anything. If you sign up for email list, I'll let you know within like 10 days. 10 minutes when it's going to drop if you have to check your email. But I don't know, just getting back to a vibe where maybe I have a concept and maybe I take a couple parameters and take it in a slightly new direction, but then something weird happens. Oh, I'm going to share that with you under that Sketchbook account, you know.

Speaker B: Now, for someone who may hold an edition of Physical Culture 1, which is the first project you put out on the Sketchbook, you added some utility TBD for the people, the first 10 who minted it. So suppose one of the hosts has one of those without any promises, of course. Are there any ideas floating around in your head of what kind of utility there might be coming with that?

Speaker A: For sure. I think something that'll probably happen is that for future releases, you'll automatically get airdropped one of the first 10 that matches your number. I want people who got in on that Dutch auction when it was high to feel like that they got something special and they're going to continue to get something special because that indicated to me like you're like, oh hell yeah, I'm in this. So airdrops of future releases, doing special projects that are even outside of FXHash where you automatically get them. I just want to give people like, I was thinking of the idea of Making physical prints and sending them to people. So I just want to reward people who are basically saying, hey, you know what? I love your work and I believe in you. I'm not promising anybody anything, but I want to give things to people who took that stance.

Speaker B: That's exciting. That makes a lot of sense.

Speaker C: I'm looking, I was not around yesterday.

Speaker B: I think you were sleeping. Actually, you must have been. Even, I think your tweet for this was kind of cryptic. It was like, in the next window, in the next cycle, it will be dropping. And so I kind of just very serendipitously like tabbed over. It had just opened and ended up, um, you know, I watched our friend Danielle get one and went in. I got number 5 there. So it's super exciting to see you experimenting like this. And it's a theme that we've seen a lot on the show too. Like there's been some other artists who have done things like that with, if you mint at the top tier, you'll get a signed print from the artist and stuff. Or obviously the reserve list, right? Like things like that that aren't always promised, but sometimes are. Like Ippsketch kind of did that with their Sketch A, B, and C series, right?

Speaker A: Oh yeah.

Speaker B: So it's really interesting to see artists playing around with bringing some of the, maybe the positive aspects of utility that are kind of associated with like the Ethereum and profile picture side. over here, finding ways to reward their collectors, but not in a way that's necessarily extractive of value or trying to get people to really do a lot of like flipping and generate a lot of volume. It's like, you can buy it and you can get it or don't, you can get it at a lower price. That's up to you.

Speaker A: And I feel like that kind of embraces this idea that I like, that with artists on the platform and within the whole Tezos ecosystem and with collectors. I like this idea of having a feeling of trust that is between those two. And I specifically didn't say that I was going to do anything in particular. I was just like, hey, there's going to be utility. I'm not going to say what it is. I'm not making any promises. But if there's a situation like that, that I put out there, you can pretty much be guaranteed that I'm going to be delivering a lot more than If I would've promised something. I like this idea that people just have trust in the artist as a person. I like this idea of establishing relationships with people, whether you meet them or not, just by your actions and behaviors and always delivering. Like, I just, I think it's important. And I think that the space already has that kind of built in. Like, I feel it from people who collect my work or for people who I've never met, but We chat on Twitter or whatever, like it feels really positive and good to me. And so it felt like another way to sort of foster that.

Speaker C: I think it's just all about how do we bring our real-world ethics and values into like these digital communities? 'Cause I, you're able to get away with so much more when you are never gonna see the people. As you said, you're never gonna be face to face. There is no accountability. And so I love that you're bringing that here and experimenting with that. And I think that's something that we've seen you do a lot, even just in the past, like experimenting with different things like that maybe feel right to you. And it's part of like the ethics thing, but also it comes across as like a sort of like savviness from your end. Like, I think you were one of the first people that we saw use like that burn mechanic, for example, where it's like, I'm posting like 1,000 of these up. You can do whatever you want for 3 hours.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: But then they're just gonna get burned. You just seem to be kind of like on this cutting edge of like, what can we do? Let's try to do that. Even like the way that you use the allowlists for like the Burroughs quote where it was just like, very fact of the matter. This is what we're doing. This is how we're doing it. It's going to be fair. Do not ask me for reserves lists on Twitter.

Speaker A: Yeah. What you're saying makes a lot of sense to me. And for me, that comes from Like in my life, I have always done art. I think I had like one job as a waitress for 2 weeks that was disastrous, but I've never done anything except for art and graphic design. And in most cases, I've run my own businesses. And I'm also an overthinker of everything. Something that's been really important to me in all the different careers I've had has always been find a way to treat the people that you're working with really well. Find a way to do things that if you were on the other side of the aisle, you would want to be done to you. There's rarely going to be a time in my life where I'm going to do something that I consider important and not to try to have found the best way to do it, or a way that makes sense to me, or a way that maybe I could do it better to have a better outcome or to have the people that I'm working with feel better about the same outcome. It's a wild world out there of what you can and can't do. There's no rules that I can find about how you have to treat your drops or allow lists or whatever, you know, like, I just want to do stuff that would seem fair to me, or that I would want to have done. And that's kind of how I'm approaching everything.

Speaker C: Do you think that there should be more artists that are doing this? Or is it more important for you to do for yourself?

Speaker A: I feel like what you put out there into any situation, you end up getting back. It's important for me how I navigate the artistic worlds that I'm inhabiting and whatever else anybody else does, that's their thing. You know, like I would never wanna say, oh, hey, you guys should do it this way or that way or blah, blah, blah. I don't know. And I really enjoy seeing the ways other people handle things, you know, like I don't talk very much about it, but I'll totally like notice different artists that I follow or that I collect. I'll make mental notes of like, okay, so this person is actually dropping like 4 projects a day on Object, and how is that affecting their secondary sales on FXHash of their last thing? You know, like I just take mental notes of things about Like, oh, this person said anybody who signs up, anybody who drops their wallet address into Twitter will automatically be on the allow list. I'm like, okay, so you're going to end up with 700 things on the allow list. How's that going to pan out for you? And also, what's your mint price going to be like? Are you doing a Dutch auction? Are you like making an allow list of 700 people and then your mint price is $100? So I try to sift through it and then see what happened when other people did things, you know?

Speaker C: I think for that latter piece, it's like the logical business owner in you coming out and being like, what is this gonna get you? Yeah.

Speaker B: We talk about this so much on the show. It seems like a lot of times artists will announce first and then think about what they announced second, you know? Like they, like, for example, that open allowlist, we've seen so many times artists say like, Yeah, send me your wallet address. And then 10 minutes later, they're like, whoa, I've had more people reply to this than I planned to have editions. And now you're in a situation where people who replied in good faith are not probably gonna get a reserve. And it just takes that extra level of consideration of like, if I do this, what are some of the outcomes? It's kind of funny to me because when you're making code-based art, I feel like you're, you kind of have a brain that's supposed to account for that, right? In a, in a way of like, if this, then that type of thinking.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: We kind of see it backfire spectacularly on a weekly basis in this arena.

Speaker C: But they only got to the this part. Yeah. They haven't figured out the next line.

Speaker A: Yeah. And I think too, like any decision that I'm gonna make artistically or like that I share in public, I can tell you I have thought about it. I have done that whole, what are the 5 different chess moves that will come after this? Even if I'm like, Sign up for a Google Form, I know that I'm going to have to take that Google Form. I'm going to have to export those. I'm going to have to put it into an email program. I'm going to, like, I've already thought, oh, what is, how much extra work is it going to be to do that? I, maybe people get so excited about their idea that they're just like, oh, let's put this out. And then they're like, oh shit, now I, now I have to deal with the repercussions.

Speaker B: I don't think it's malicious at all. I think it's, it's just more often than not, it's just kind of like, it's a bummer. You know, it's a bummer because sometimes people do things that really warp the perceptions of their releases. And by putting yourself into that area, you're kind of inviting criticism. You're over-inviting like the analysis of now the price of your work versus maybe what the work itself is. And, but it's also this kind of reality of releasing work as an NFT. It's this financialized thing. You're tying it to this baked-in marketplace with fx hash or whatever platform you're releasing it on. And You know, we say often, right, we don't envy artists at all because there's just so much you have to think about and plan for, and it's just a minefield of optics that is difficult.

Speaker A: If as an artist, you know, you're working on the blockchain and you know that what you put out is there permanently for everyone to see, maybe take that one extra step and tell yourself that anything you write on Twitter should be as permanent as well. Anything you you put out there to the world that you say you're gonna do, maybe that becomes permanent and you have to do it.

Speaker C: This is the tattoo artist in you speaking?

Speaker A: Oh my God, this is, this is the tattoo artist speaking. It's true, it's all permanent, you know. But like, our word is all we have, so if you say you're gonna do something, you have to follow through with it.

Speaker B: This is such a pseudo-philosophical guys talking podcast type of question, but I think it actually really applies to you. What is the secret to success? It does seem like throughout your careers, which are many, you've always been able to find some amount of success and not even just careers, but like hobbies, community building, everything that you've been a part of. It seems like in one way or another, you're a cornerstone of it. You know, I'm just thinking to all the things that we see in, in the documentary. Have you failed? Did that just make the cutting room floor and it wasn't in the documentary? I mean, it just kind of feels like you've just You're so good at doing it right, doing it authentically, and I guess just succeeding. And like, can you distill that at all? Is there— I know that's a tough question.

Speaker A: There are a couple things that I'm really bad at. I can't cut hair, I can't work in clay very well, and I'm a really bad beader. But the thing that I think brings me success in what I endeavor is that I don't try to do things that I'm not really, really passionate about. And I say no to things that I have no interest in doing. People who are the closest people to me in my life, my girlfriend, my sister, they would be the first people to admit that, oh yeah, I'm a very selfish person. But I'm selfish in a way where I know what's going to make me happy and I know what's not going to make me happy. And I just don't invest my time and energy into things I don't love. So being passionate about what you are about to undertake is extremely important. I also think not being afraid to try something new, discovering new things. My personality loves that. When you learn something new, you always have to look at what's done before in order to figure out how to do what you want to do. After you've reached the point of getting to that place. I personally have always found that it's very, very, very important to try to find what your authentic voice is. It's cool if you see people doing stuff that you think is great, and it's cool that you could try to copy that in order to learn how to do it. But once you know how to do it, stop doing what everybody else is doing. If you're not contributing what's an authentic voice for you in the the world, there is absolutely no way that you can give back anything of value with your art. And I think that's so important for every artist to keep in mind. Be yourself, even if you think no one else will like who you are or what you put out there. And, and knowing that what you put out is your reputation and how you act and being thoughtful about what you put out is your reputation. And ultimately you have to feel good about what you've done and what you've brought into the world. So that'd be my thing that I'd share about that.

Speaker C: So I think that we get to even the best content an hour in, I have to say. And I think that resonates with so much of, I think maybe more of the current rhetoric that you see people finally coming towards where it's like, The importance of boundaries, the importance of knowing who you are, the importance of not being like a merciless people pleaser, for example. Yeah. And really living to your own values and, you know, trusting that other people will respect that. Is that something that you've had to work hard to get to, or is that something that's just kind of innate to who you are?

Speaker A: I feel like I am an innately self-sufficient person. I'm a self-centered person, just to be perfectly honest about it. But in being a self-centered person, the people around me know that I'm always truthful, that what they're getting from me is actually genuine. And I feel like I'd rather say outright, hey, I'm gonna do what I want to do and not have a lot of compromises. And I think people ultimately, if they want to be in your life or, you know, have some sort of relationship of any kind with you, that that's really reciprocated. Yeah. I found with this particular, like, journey into NFTs and generative art, starting off, I really had so much learning to do and I knew that I had so much learning to do. And I feel like I was so eager to do everything all at once. And now I found myself actually, like, for the first time in this journey, of course it's a short journey, it's only started a couple years ago, but I found myself Starting to say no to things that I consider to be important when I realize that when I think about doing them, I don't get excited. And that's like a big step for me to be like, yeah, this project is really cool. This project is going to be really great. But you know what? I want to take some time and only do things for me right now that I don't have to meet anyone else's deadline or meet anyone else's expectation. And maybe it's because I'm older and the older I get, I realize that the time I have here is so valuable that if I'm not spending it on things that I'm doing for me, I mean, I'm just talking artistically. Obviously I'm going to do things for other people in my life that I love, but, but artistically I have to like really focus on bringing joy in the creation. and having less stress as far as meeting others' expectations. And so having that be a focus feels really positive. And it's so hard to have a sense of balance in the whole crypto NFT world. Like, it's such a struggle. But putting what makes you happy first is probably like a really good way of taking a step to find balance.

Speaker C: I think my follow-up comment to that is that you'll need to write a book or a Twitter thread about how to quit your desk job in 3 easy steps in order to really help reclaim that space.

Speaker A: You know what, I can tell you how to do that. If you want to make any change at all, all you have to do is take the situation that you're in that you are thinking about leaving. Take that situation, whether it's a job or relationship or place that you're living, doesn't matter. Sit for a moment and imagine doing that very same thing for the rest of your life. Imagine just staying with it for the rest of your life. And if you feel such a sense of depression and desperation at the thought of not making that change, that's really all you need as a motivation. Wow. Just imagine your life doing the same thing over and over And over again. And that for me is how I've been able to make a lot of career changes and just follow the path that makes me most excited.

Speaker B: So I see a tear coming to Trinity's eye.

Speaker C: There is hope.

Speaker B: Be careful. Well, Lisa, this has been amazing. Thank you so much for coming on the show and talking to us and sharing just so much of you with the community here and It's just been a pleasure to listen to everything. Before we go, I would love for you to get off some plugs, get us excited about what might be coming up. You know, obviously we know the sketchbook series, maybe some more stuff on the primary account. Will there be more apparel coming? You know, you dropped a t-shirt recently.

Speaker A: I'm actually really excited about those t-shirts. Like, generative art looks so cool and you see it everywhere, even though it's not generative art. You're like, oh, look at the Tiles on that building. Do do do. Generative art. People already had a great response to the pre-sale of the t-shirts. They're being printed right now. I think I have like ordered one dozen extra in different sizes. So if people want to like continue to like get stuff, I love making merch, and I do that a lot with my tattooing career. So it's like super fun for me. So yeah, 100%. I'll be making more like generative fun apparel. I've been working on some larger pen and ink on really big, nice paper, handmade generative stuff from just like algorithms that I've made up for myself while sketching on paper and stuff. If something happens and I stop putting out work in a variety of mediums, something's happened to me. So I'm sure there's just a lot of stuff that you're going to see from my main account on OBJKT. Like, I'll keep putting out more stuff. So I do have an email list if anybody wants to get advance notice on drops, and I think that's just at my website at lisaorth.xyz/email. So if anybody cares to know what I'm up to in advance, I'll give them some information.

Speaker C: One last follow-up question. I've been meaning to ask it. Is there something in the intersection between plotter art and plotting on skin for tattoos?

Speaker A: Okay, so I got so excited about that handmade generative stuff, and I've been doing like bigger pen and ink things with it and the t-shirts. And my sister is one of the people that if I have any ideas as far as tattoos, she's all like, yep, let's get tattooed. So I've talked her into getting the first generative tattoo. So I'm going to be like doing a tattoo for her, and we have this grid that we're going to make out. We're going to figure out the number of lines generatively, the number of grids generatively, the size generatively. Built this little, just super easy, like random number generator we're going to use that I put on my phone. The tattoo is going to be generatively Like, I'm gonna be tattooing it, but we're gonna hit the random number generator for each time. So I'm really excited about that. She's like making me wait a week or something because she wants to go swimming, but, but that's happening soon. And I would love to do more stuff like— it's because I am so passionate about generative art and I still love tattooing so much. Like, I want those worlds to do like a really good handshake and see what can happen.

Speaker B: That's dangerous if you ever come to New York for the two of us, let me tell you. That's really dangerous. Neither of us have gotten tattoos, but the idea of getting a Lisa Orth tattoo is extremely intriguing.

Speaker C: A generative tattoo.

Speaker B: Especially a generative one would be wild.

Speaker A: New York is one of the places that I've done guest spots before, so that's definitely not out of the question.

Speaker B: Well, you've got our DMs, so.

Speaker A: Oh, I love it. So good.

Speaker B: Well, thank you so much, Lisa. This is, like I said, this has been amazing. It's been a dream of ours, I think, since the earliest days of the show to have you on. An artist that we've been following for the longest time on the platform and truly enjoy. So it's been great to have you on. Like many of the things you pursue in your life, I hope coming on this show has made you happy.

Speaker A: It definitely has. And it feels very special to have, to have been asked, you know, that's really nice. And I have had a lovely, lovely time chatting with the both of you. Thank you so much. Thank you.

Speaker B: That was Lisa Orth. Check her out on fxhash. Check all the links in the show notes. To find her documentary, her website, where to get her merch, all of her drops. That's it for this one. Later everyone. Bye.

Speaker A: Woo-hoo!