Speaker A: Hello and welcome everyone to another episode of Waiting to Be Signed, a special interview episode. We're joined today by Kylo. Famous collector on FX Hash, and of course Trinity, ever-present co-host of the show, is here. Hey everyone, how's it going?

Speaker B: Good, good.

Speaker C: Super glad to have you on, Kailoh.

Speaker A: It's been a little bit difficult to get the timing right because you're all the way over there in India, so it's quite a time difference, but we're really happy to have found this time to talk to you.

Speaker B: Yeah, thank you for having me. I'm super happy that you invited me and I've heard a few of the podcast episodes already, and I feel really happy to be here. And thank you for, you know, taking time from your personal lives as well to have me on here.

Speaker A: You know, increasingly the podcast is becoming our personal lives, and so it just feels a part of it. I'm sure almost everyone listening will have been familiar with you, at least from seeing your name in the sales feed, usually buying, not so much selling, at least from what I've observed. And from some of the collections that, you know, you've minted and own a large portion of. But maybe you can start us off by just giving us an introduction about yourself, your history in art and art collecting, NFTs in particular would be great, and then how you came to fxhash.

Speaker B: Yeah, I can start off because I got to art from crypto, so I can start off where I started with crypto. Post the pandemic, there was a big crash and The price of Bitcoin had fallen below $5K. I think that was a good time, I thought, to get back in after I'd experimented a couple of years ago. And being in the country I was, in India, they had banned crypto or made it at least very difficult to transact. And it was around the same time that they unbanned it and made it legal again. So that's where I started off with Bitcoin and then got into Ethereum, obviously, as a second most valuable coin, but I wanted to find out deeper into what gives these cryptocurrencies value. So I started just Googling and researching more and more about projects that are launching on Ethereum and what are people actually doing with the smart contract platform. And that's when I came across CryptoKitties. That was, as many people might know, a project by what is today Flow Labs as a collectible project. Gaming slash collectible project that broke Ethereum. And I was really intrigued and interested how all of these CryptoKitties can generate more CryptoKitties purely on-chain. And that really fascinated me. And I signed up for NBA Top Shot beta, which was launching just around that time. And I got in super early on there. The ability to own basketball cards as digital packs also excited me as being in this country, I'd never had access to those markets, physical markets, which are mostly dominated in the USA. So that kind of opened my eyes to what NFTs can be in terms of digital ownership. And it was around this time that Rarible launched this platform. Now maybe not much known or used, was all the rage back then where people were minting all sorts of art. and collecting it with crypto. As a person myself, I have a hobby in painting in acrylics, and that interested me for the reason that I kind of mint my art and see what happens. And, you know, I found a few collectors who bought those mints as well. So I was always intrigued by this question, right? Like, are NFTs only for digital artworks, or can a physical artwork be photographed and minted, and so on and so forth? And we were just figuring That out at the time. And that's how I got into Art Blocks, uh, at the first time when Snowfro, who launched the Art Blocks platform, was also an NBA Top Shot collector and a good friend. We used to trade some NBA Top Shot moments together, and he told me about his platform, which was launching around that time. And I think not many people know, but I minted the number 3 squiggle Out of the 10,000, like I was literally right there. It was a historic moment, but at that time it didn't feel so. Stupidly, I sold it for some 7 ETH a few months down the line. Now I regret it a lot, like many other decisions, but it's okay. It's made me learn and be more successful in other areas. So that's how I started Art Blocks. And then again, Art Blocks was a revolution, right? Any collector could mint something randomly and it gave you Like opening a box of chocolates, each one is different. It kind of gives you that element of surprise and owning something really unique. It took off from there, I think in the August of that year. And then came Tezos. So I think from Ethereum to Tezos, my only thought was, you know, why only Ethereum? There are these alternate blockchains. And I had seen some success in minting PFPs on other blockchains as well, like on Solana and Cardano. A lot of people, probably just because of being maxis in the space, neglect these other chains. And that's where I thought the opportunity is, because if there are less people on these other chains but the work is just as good, it might be valuable someday. And the same reasoning went for art as well. So I saw Tezos as this niche, up-and-coming, hippie sort of vibe where first of all, the art was not so expensive and you could collect literally so many different editions. The main thing was at that time Ethereum transactions were costing maybe around $20+ per transaction to do even simple things like transfer or mint and stuff like that. So Tezos was this place where you could really add to your collection, build out a really cool collection with lots of cool art and artists while not spending too much money, especially when you convert it from Ethereum to Tezos. So that's how I started off, and I need to thank some people for that. I think Lonli was the first one. Lonli, I don't know if you know him, he's a big proponent of art on Tezos. And I started off just creating kind of a little 20 ETH worth of Tezos fund to kind of get into it, and Lonli was already in there for quite a while, so he was helping me pick out good artists to buy from. And it was mainly on what at that time was Hic Et Nunc and OBJKT. fxhash hadn't launched yet. And then in the middle of all this, fxhash came around. And then at that time also, I think there was a big audience which was only Tezos and a big audience which was only Ethereum. And I kind of had that advantage where I'd come from Ethereum and become a large-ish Tezos collector pretty quickly because I love the art. So I, you know, you know, collected a few hundred pieces already from different artists. And then fx hash comes along and quickly it lit up for me that this is exactly Art Blocks but on Tezos. And if you look at the early collections on Art Blocks, if the same thing happens to fx hash, I think it could be pretty big. There was just a few collectors who were on it back then. And the clear defining line was, and what we were discussing back and forth almost every single day was, Not only is it good art, it's the same artist. This artist has done work on Ethereum and they're selling art on Tezos and it's like 10 times cheaper. In any market, that doesn't make sense. I mean, yes, each piece is a different piece, so art is not comparable, which is why it's non-fungible. But the quality of art also was just as good and that price discrepancy just wasn't making sense. So that could mean one of only two things, right? That either the Ethereum art is overvalued or the Tezos is super undervalued. And I think maybe the answer was somewhere in the middle because over time we saw there's a bear market and a crash in Ethereum value. And if you compare especially to traditional art— so my background is not from traditional art, but I have been learning a lot about it over a period of time after meeting fellow collectors and going for things like NFT NYC visiting museums with friends, what the kind of prices are in the traditional market. And some artists do command super high prices, like millions of dollars worth. But many artists also don't command the prices like what we pay for, say, for example, Art Blocks NFTs today. Maybe it's a wholly different medium and, you know, you can't apply the same criteria because we're in early stages and some of this could be historic. So obviously people would love to speculate, and that's, that's what a lot of the market is today. And market is what the market is, so I don't argue with that. You know, people put their money where their mouth is, and that's what will determine the prices in the future. And we'll come more to that. So yeah, that's how I started off on Tezos and FXHash, and I'm super happy. I love the community and the people who, who love to support artists and each other, and it's very warm and it's very nice and welcoming. But at the same time, I want to say that I'm not an either-or maxi. I love to collect art on all different chains, and I'm happy to be where the artists are.

Speaker A: I think you're the only person I've ever talked to who said, or at least admitted, that they've minted an NFT on Cardano. It's such a— I feel like that chain gets so hated on, uh, just all over crypto Twitter.

Speaker B: The PFPs I minted called Space Buds, they're pretty cute, and I think they were super cheap when they minted out, and I was like, okay, let's just get into this. It's not gonna cost me much in Ethereum terms, so let's just see where it goes. But that's the extent of it. Like, I don't use the chain much, and I've probably sold almost all of it because it gave a decent return and invested it all back into Tezos. So like, I did the first generative art on Solana. This is a project called Fract. And because it was the first, it always carries significance in blockchain because the time it is minted is forever recorded in history. So the first always makes a difference. And again, like over a period of time when I was investing in Tezos, this is what I was doing. I was like selling all of my Solana stuff, investing it all in fxhash. It wasn't even for me. an investment because I just counted this Solana stuff as like free money to experiment with, with great art and artists. So, and it worked out well.

Speaker C: Quick question that's kind of related to this, because obviously you see art as something that's amazing and there to be collected, but you also see it as an investment. Do you also participate in like the DeFi movement on blockchain, especially within Ethereum, as a way to kind of continue growing your stack? Air quotes abound.

Speaker B: I have dabbled a little bit into DeFi, not that much, but I always felt that NFTs were my core because I really got it. Over a period of time, I've seen with different projects that NFTs are kind of linked to culture and value and brand and strategy. And even in my day job, which is completely not related to NFTs and crypto, it's related more to agribusiness and other things that I do. I'm also a student of management. I did a postgrad in that. So for me, NFTs make a lot more sense. I understand them better. I understand markets in this case better. DeFi is just, I think, too volatile and a lot of Ponzi-nomics and shitcoins. I don't know, but some of it worked for me, but mostly it didn't and mostly ended up just losing a bunch of money. The basic thing is you provide some liquidity For example, you have a bunch of ApeCoin and Ethereum, you provide liquidity on Uniswap and you earn some fees in return. But you do have some losses in case the value of one of the coins goes down quite a bit. So I've realized it's too hard to predict those things, especially in crypto markets. Even with NFTs, it might be the same, but I found that I've been able to pick and choose better in NFTs. than I have been able to do so in DeFi. So not much in DeFi, to answer you.

Speaker A: You mentioned Ponzinomics. I mean, that's one of the bigger criticisms I think we hear now, and maybe we've observed looking back at the recent history with a lot of PFP projects that either set out to be Ponzis or rug pulls or incidentally became them because of really bad management. Are you still super bullish on PFPs and like actively looking at them, or is that's something that you kind of just viewed in that moment as quick flips to generate liquidity, like get in, get out, and maybe keep the ones— like I know that you have an ape, for example, you know, keep ones that you feel actually have strong legs to them over time.

Speaker B: I believe that PFPs have their own space and place in the NFT ecosystem. And they are kind of the, you know, PFPs are your identity in the digital world. And they can be much more than that as well. They're not art, I would say, but they're more like your personal digital avatar wherever you go eventually in the metaverse. And you need to have an identity. And maybe a piece of artwork could be your identity as well, but profile pictures just convey that in a much better way than art could. So yes, PFPs do have their own space, and that I view as a completely different market from say generative art or art, digital art in general. And I do look at them from time to time, but I'm not really into trading much at all, both in art or PFPs. Again, I found myself only losing out if I try to kind of time something super well where I'm buying and selling immediately. The most returns I've ever generated is when I've bought into a project which I really believed in early and held on to it for a long-ish period of time. Now, NFT space is quite short in itself, so I don't know what long means here, but I'm not into trading, so I'm not looking at PFP trading on a daily basis. I still hold some apes, and I'm quite bullish on them as well. They are the largest project in the space by far, and Yuga Labs just continues to innovate and do really cool things. They're launching a game now And I think they will continue to innovate with culture and like merch drops and partnering with cool brands and things like that. I think they will continue to have relevance. Again, they're, you know, 10,000 only and never going to increase. So I do believe that they will do well eventually, that I have faith in, but I'm not trading PFPs or looking at too many PFP projects.

Speaker C: One of the things that we always talk about, because both Will and I are much more on the spectrum of let's maybe sell a little bit in order to cover costs so that we can continue to collect. It sounds like you're much more into it for the long-term speculation, or not even speculation, just long-term holding. Is there anything that you have speculated on other than your Squiggle early on, or anything that you do prefer to sell, or are you just diamond hands all the way?

Speaker B: I know I sold a lot of things that I regret a lot. Like most of the things I've sold, I've regretted. Some things I've not regretted. I mean, this is how I learned, right? This was the time when Rarible was just kicking off and there was token rewards for how much volume you did on their platform. And at that time, CryptoPunks were just taking off. They were just under 1 Ethereum on floor value. And I saw a few traders, pro traders back in the time, Pranksy and others who were kind of doing some wash trading of Punks to generate this Rarible token. That's when I got to know about Punks and I thought they were pretty cool as well. And at that time, even in crypto, I was quite small. So I also had to kind of sell things to buy things. I didn't have any more cash to be able to put in myself into just kind of holding it for long term. So I remember at that time when Bitcoin was just around $10K or so and I had only 3 Bitcoin, that was my entire exposure and I You know, pretty much went all in from all of my savings. So I sold 1 Bitcoin and bought like 13 Punks, and that was around maybe 5 Ethereum floor value. And because this was artificially pumped due to the Rarible token farming, they quickly went down in value over the next couple of months from 5 Ethereum back to 2. And I was like, oh, I made a huge mistake. In doing this, I was feeling horrible, and eventually it went back up to five, and I sold it all just to like not lose money. And I decided at least I have my previous one Bitcoin back, and I should have at least kept one or two. But you know, that's always hindsight. So yes, I do believe one should sell from time to time. And as we've seen in the recent bear market, if you sold. at least some of the Art Blocks, for example, in the initial pump where things were going for quite a bit more than what it is today, probably everyone would have been better off. But again, it's all hindsight and it's very, very, very difficult to time these things. And now I have a collection which I feel comfortable, at least due to my involvement in ApeDAO, I have enough savings that I don't need to sell everything that I have, that I can take my time in figuring out what to sell. But I've also come to this point where I'm so invested in the Tezos ecosystem in terms of how much I've put in till date. I feel like if I want to buy more art on Tezos, I should sell something and then purchase more. That's not to say I will not purchase more, but I have to be really selective on what I'm doing because it's no more the old age of like buying at 1, 2 tez prices because it's early days and hoping that it will become something big. It's already become something. A platform. Most of the big artists or the big drops are going to be Dutch auctions where they're more fairly priced and there's no arbitrage effect. So now I want to focus more on art I really love and I really want to have in my collection, maybe not focusing too much on, on the price at all. But then that means that I should be selective, and to be able to finance that, I want to be able to sell some parts of my collection. And to be able to continue collecting. Maybe it might be something makes sense for people who might have unlimited resources, but I believe we must keep some sort of balance, so to speak.

Speaker C: Well, your portfolio on Tezos, or at least on fxhash, is up almost 600%, which is pretty spectacular performance, I would say.

Speaker B: Yeah. Did you count the test drive? I don't know if you did that.

Speaker C: No.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: One Tezos is one Tezos. That's how we operate around here. Really, the only thing hurting your portfolio is the unicorns that you bought. They're down 90%.

Speaker A: Well, and some other pieces. I mean, it's been an interesting year, I think, on fxhash that we've seen some classic pieces or pieces that were considered grails back in December and January now, you know, have declined a lot in value, like in USD value. I think before we get to that, or maybe this can all be part of a greater question, which is what is your underlying thesis then? It's interesting to hear that you're, you kind of consider yourself exposure capped on Tezos. How are you deciding then which pieces you're going to move into now? Because we have noticed that your collecting has slowed down and there's kind of like this class of newer grails that have happened in the past, I don't know, 4 or 5 months or so, projects like September and Coronado, Turner Lite, Take Wing, that you haven't really added yet, or you've only added maybe one of them. So like, what is your thesis, medium-term, long-term on all this generative art? Looking at museums, talking to people from the traditional art world, where do you see some of this stuff going? Like, do you think it's ever going to be accepted by the mainstream? Very open-ended question, but feel free to riff on that.

Speaker B: Yeah, sure, sure. There's a lot to unpack there. I think definitely that people will consider some of this art as museum grade and some of it will go into the museums. We don't know who or which artists or which art it will be, but I'm pretty sure that this is part of a niche or a different type of art history that will happen over a period of time, and people will think of these times as super early times of experimentation. Where so many artists came together and did something super cool. While saying that, yes, as you notice, my collecting has slowed down, but my purchase token price, for example, has probably increased over this period of time as I'm tending to collect more one-of-ones as well. I love long-form collections where one algorithm creates so many multiple images, but But I also want in my collection something unique that is only single output chosen by the artist as a special one, and that has a special meaning to it as well. So I've been trying to collect one-of-ones of many artists, both on Tezos and Ethereum. I think that has its own place, and that obviously is usually priced a little bit higher than the long-form collections as well. And there is obviously that concern about the amount of supply, right? Because in traditional art, there's a limit, physical limit, to how many paintings you can paint over a period of time because it needs physical labor. But on digital art, especially in long form, you can create an algorithm— although a lot of work does go into it— you can let the algorithm create millions of outputs if you want them to. So the question really is, and I don't have an answer to this, on how people would value long-form art collections over a period of time which do not have each piece be very unique, at least from each other. So I see a lot of collections, and this is sometimes as a personal— it's just a personal taste that I don't like in a collection, is if it's a long-form collection and almost all of the pieces are just separated either by a palette but mostly looking like each other, then that loses the point of a long-form collection. Like, why are you creating a long-form collection where almost all the pieces look the same? You might as well then just mint a one-of-one or a short series of maybe 3 or 4 one-of-ones from that collection and sell it like that. Now, I'm not one to make decisions for the artists. They obviously know the market and they, they know their art, and maybe they want to showcase the range of this algorithm. But then again, that my point stands that if you really want to showcase a long-form art collection, you have to ensure that it's varied enough and yet cohesive enough to qualify. And that takes some sort of skill. And that, that's what I look for in a collection. So yeah, I have skipped on many of collections for that reason, but I'm still bullish on it in general because of the unique ability of a person to be able to mint something totally random and totally unique to themselves while at the same time forming a community around it. Say you have Garden Monoliths, just as an example, and you have all these other collectors who also have Garden Monoliths. So you now have a collection of people who co-own this part of the same algorithm, and then you can share your love for this beautiful art. You can't do that with the one-of-one, but But you can do that with the collection. So it has that community feel to it. And I think that's what has promoted this long-form thing in a big way. And I think fx hash shows no signs of stopping. There are big projects coming every day. But then we should again look at, like you said, many of these so-called grail projects which were there in last December are maybe still there and the newer collections are getting the hype. And that's the nature of the beast, right? Like the new collections is right there in front of us. It's at the top of everyone's mind, and there's kind of this frenzy where it mints out and people are buying on the secondary. There's a lot of volume and FOMO, but then over a period of time it settles down and people really, you know, look at maybe buying the rare pieces or the good pieces only. So there are 2 strategies there where you try to be online all the time and try to track all the collections, which Having a full-time job as well as a newly started family. We have a baby who is 17 months old. It's really tough to keep track of, and it takes some toll on your sleep as well as on your mind because being here in India, the mint times are most of the time late night for me. So I've realized that my collection has built up quite a bit, and I'm still excited, but it's really tough to keep track of everything. So I've tried to focus on buying things on secondary or minting things on Dutch auction where I don't need to be minting that very second, which allows me some time to kind of buy. So that's what has just happened due to life circumstances. I still continue to buy here and there, but because I need to sell things and it's really hard for me to sell things, especially art, because everything that I've bought mostly is because I like the art or artist. You know, it's really difficult to let go. It's like your personal possession collection, which you've built with so much love. So it's, it's tough to let go, and which is why it's tough to raise money in Tez, which is why it's difficult to buy things. But if that's the way it should be, it's okay because there will be continuous flow of art and it'll continue to come. And I have to tell myself that I can't have everything. There's too much good art in the world and I can't own everything. So I can appreciate it from far. Maybe it's not in my collection, but I'll still appreciate it.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: And still try to collect things once in a while. So that's where I'm at personally.

Speaker A: Well, now I feel even more bad that you're recording late in the evening your time because both Trinity and I are newer parents than you and we understand how valuable that sleep is.

Speaker B: So. Yeah, congrats to you guys. I mean, yeah, it's crazy, it's amazing, and it's beautiful at the same time. But yeah, sleep is not something you have in the first year.

Speaker A: It's tough.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Working through it, that's for sure. One of the things that, and I don't think we want to go down this rabbit hole too much, but it was just interesting to hear your take on the one-of-ones. You know, especially I think maybe from a collector's perspective, they're amazing because you're getting unique art that only exists there for you, so to speak. But from a speculation perspective, you know, we've definitely seen that smaller edition work, like even on fx hash where everything is randomized, I think Waiting in Afton is one of the classic examples. You know, we don't see as much volume there and the liquidity is really, really down because there's less traction, less marketing through the sales feed, I suppose. Is that something that crosses your mind when you're collecting any of these 101s versus getting in on like a 500 edition fxhash project or Art Blocks project?

Speaker B: Exactly like you said, right? Art is not supposed to be liquid. And what crypto has allowed through these long-form projects and tokenization is allowing art to be more liquid than it used to be in the traditional world. So if you're looking at the one-of-ones or even the smaller collections like Waiting in Afton, which don't have liquidity, that's exactly the way it's supposed to be because these pieces or more valuable pieces rarely trade hands over time and they rarely ever come to the market, only when the collector does want to sell them and there's a buyer who's willing to buy it at the time. And many times at auctions, things go unsold, right? And takes years and years for some paintings which have never seen even the light of day, like it gets sold in an auction and maybe it only comes up after 30 years after somebody has a divorce or somebody is passing on their legacy. So crypto and blockchain has allowed this kind of tokenization which is quick moving and we're seeing almost overnight things moving to 10x, 100x, and that's its nature. But art is really not supposed to be that way. And maybe one of the pluses of a long-form collection is the liquidity, right? That you can, if you feel like, and if you need funds, if you ever need to, you can liquidate it quite quickly, at least at the floor. If you're, say, selling a relatively rare piece and you list it below the floor, it's maybe likely to move quickly. And that's a plus from a collector's perspective. But then again, on the one-of-ones, If you have the ability to hold on to something for a longer period of time, and if you're thinking long term, then that's where technically you should get the highest value or return over time if you look at parallels from the traditional art world. So I don't see that as a negative at all if you are a long-term buyer. So similarly for Reading and Afton, I feel it's one of the most amazing projects. I own only one and I regret that, but I think that was one of the pieces that caused the first kind of run on fxhash when I bought it at the time, my waiting enough time for maybe 1,000 Tezos or something. I think it minted out at probably, I don't know, 1/100th of that. And at that time it was the highest sale on the fxhash platform and things kind of boomed from there and then collectors kept coming on. So what we need, I think, for fxhash Tezos in general is more and more collectors coming in for the art. And I think that will happen as knowledge spreads and as more and more people get excited about this type of art. At the same time, about the Tezos ecosystem, because in the end, it's— you're buying something in Tezos and it's valued in Tezos on the marketplace, even though people may be converting into dollars back and forth every time you buy or sell something. You still need the Tezos ecosystem to remain strong and to be a place where artists and collectors love to come and to create something. I think it will happen, but nobody knows for sure. I believe that both collections will do well, smaller collections, one-of-ones, and longer ones. Each will have their own market, and the jury is out on what will be more valuable, a super rare piece from a long form or a one-of-one from that artist. Nobody knows. And I think they will both have their own markets.

Speaker A: Taking the long view and talking about some of the projects that really did bleed a lot this year, some of which you own quite a lot of, I mean, some of which you're the top holder of, projects like Sequence, Repeater, to name some, have gone down a lot just because of the price of Tez, but also because their floors haven't gone up to compensate. Do you feel like there's a future for those projects potentially to come back? Or do you think that they've maybe started to become a little bit forgotten? As they don't have the same amount of volume as other projects do?

Speaker B: I don't know what's going to happen. I can't predict the future. But what I do know is the projects that you did mention, Repeater and Sequence, I still love these projects and I believe in them completely. Repeater is one of my favorites, not only because I'm biased, you know, because I'm the top holder of this project. I think it's amazing what the artist has done with the palettes and how the pieces have come out. And it's really unique. You don't see that kind of thing anywhere else. And it's some of the shapes which have come out are quite different. Like, I think at the time it was minting out, it launched as the same day as Garden Monoliths. You know, people loved GMs. Obviously it didn't mint out the same day. And that was the time when fxhash used to have these breaks between minting as well. So I had to wait till the next minting window and I immediately tried to like mint as many as I could only because I'd missed out on his collection on Art Blocks and I loved it so much. And now that he had launched on fx hash, I was like, I have to have as much as I can of this collection. That was my primary motivation. So I still love the art and I think eventually people will recognize that because again, it was one of the early collections. As well, and it probably doesn't have that big of a supply. I think maybe, I don't know, 300, 500 or so. But like I said, there's so many great collections out there, and you mentioned so many of the new ones which I don't own any of. They're just gonna keep happening. So one thing I hope that eventually will matter is which collections were both good as well as early. And obviously all the great collections to come after will also have value. But to have value, you need to have more and more collectors who are loving this kind of art. And I think they're not forgotten, so to speak. Like, I think people will still enjoy this art, but maybe it will just take some time because people can't have— again, like I said, people don't have unlimited money to spend, so they can't have everything in their collection. I'm still holding on to my repeaters. And I think another collection, for example, is Defrag by Toxy, which is one of the OG collections which did very well. And there is that debate again, which you've probably had on the podcast before, about static versus dynamic art, art which is both interactive as well as video art or a video format like Defrag, which is Unlimited. It keeps going on for unlimited number of time. You really need to spend time with the art to realize what it is all about, not just look at the thumbnail. Maybe getting a slight discount right now, but eventually when we have screens in our homes specifically for art which are as ubiquitous as maybe our phone screens or laptop screens, maybe at that time this interactive art, or in places where and this interactive art will become more valuable because the artist Toxy himself has been kind of a pioneer in coded art and encoding in general, and that is accepted. And this being his first collection on fxhash, and there's many like this. I mean, this— I'm just giving this as an example because I thought of it today while I was scrolling through my earliest mints. I'll let the market do its thing. I'm just going to, you know, hold on to these pieces which have done well in the past and which I think are great art, I'm just gonna hold on to them.

Speaker A: Yeah, Toxy is a great example of another one whose prices have just really stayed flat in Tez terms. Although it had a couple of runs over the year, not nearly enough to keep it up to date in its USD pricing. It's still super affordable and a project that I look at all the time right now in terms of buying more.

Speaker B: One thing I forgot to mention, that a lot of artists are also minting a lot of projects, and now again, I'm I'm not someone who can tell an artist not to mint something, and I think it is also frowned upon quite a bit from the community that, you know, collectors should not be dictating the price or the mechanism or the amount that the artist is minting. Let them mint as much art as they want, and I'm firmly in that category. Let the artists use their agency to do as much minting as possible because right now it's such a small group of collectors who is there Eventually there will be thousands of others who will want to have access to this art, and at that time maybe it will be a good collection size for more number of collectors. But that obviously impacts prices in the short run. Not that I am trading onto it, but I think a lot of artists who have maybe more than 10, 20, 25 even— I've seen many artists do more and more collections, and they're using fxhash as a sort of experimentation place where they can mint something that they've worked on. In the end, you know, the quality of the art will show, I think. So even if an artist is minting maybe 10+ projects, people or collectors will gravitate towards their best projects and the other projects may not get as much value. And that is in everything, right? Like, and that is subjective choice. Obviously collectors will buy things that they like to buy, not just for speculation purpose. Maybe speculation will just be temporary. What will stand out in the end is great art from a perspective of how amazing it was, or how if they did something new, or if it looks cool, or if it has a story with the artist, if it has a story that makes sense to some collectors. So that is something that I look for when I try to buy art. And at the beginning, when FXHash was just launching, everything was new and everything was speculative. So I was kind of buying everything left, right, and center. I'm trying to be more and more picky about what I get and what I don't get. And even if I see that it's some artists whose maybe other projects I don't have— for example, I think you mentioned that I don't own Ethereum Microcosm by Cypher. I think I did own one, or maybe I sold it, but I really like RGBs much more. So that's where I've concentrated my collection. And secondly, I think you mentioned that I don't own Uninhabitable as well, and I think I did own some 3 or 4 at some point, but I do love the artist's other collections, for example, and I own a lot of those and I haven't sold any of those. So in many cases that you might see that, you know, I don't own everything, but just focusing on the art that I like.

Speaker C: One of the things that came up while you were talking and, you know, going through some of your overall thesis on collecting in general, obviously collecting great art is a big part of it, but how much of it is also really collecting art from artists that you believe in? You're number one holder of some very like seemingly random items. For example, you might be one of the number one collectors of Chris McCully's Bezier's Four Ways, Chris's first project. You also happen to be the number one holder of things by Lars Wander, who's seen huge runs like Piter Pasma, people who've released a lot of work on Art Blocks. How do you see art versus artist? Not in a controversial way, but just from a collecting standpoint.

Speaker B: It really depends on the artist as well, I think. But typically if I like an artist, I try to mint from them. There might be a lot of pieces I collected from artists that I had not known at all and that I went just by the art. And I couldn't do much research because maybe there was not much on Twitter back then. On what the artist has done previously or what their background is. So all you have is the data point to go by is the art that you're seeing in front of you. So a lot of my collection is just that. For example, I collected by Rhys. I think it's called Twin Peaks or Peaks. That collection, I just thought it was so fresh, so different. After some point, it was quite, you know, it was quite different and it was simplistic in a good way. So I went deep on it, not knowing much about the artist at all. And then obviously then I spoke to the artist and collected their other pieces in different styles as well. So if I like an artist, I try to find more and more and get deeper into what their other art collection is. And if I like that, I will definitely get into that as well. One other thing I was trying to find is what artists have minted on Art Blocks and have done well. And are also minting on fxhash. So I try to collect from those artists even if I may not have liked some of that art, just from a general investment thesis perspective. But yes, generally, for example, obviously Zancan is the big name with having their top sales on fxhash, probably top 3 projects in the top 5. So from Zancan, I try to collect I collect on each and every platform, be it OBJKT or be it on Ethereum. I try to collect on many different bases because I just love the art that he makes on many different types of styles. So it depends on the artist and the art. If I like it, I'm going to go deep on it.

Speaker A: This might be a hard question for you to answer because you've collected so much of his work. You're the top holder of Garden Monoliths and recently you bought some 1-of-1s at auction for your Alpha Fund, which we can start to talk about as well. But do you feel like Zancan is one of the few artists then that is kind of exempted from the oversupply or frequently released problem? And in particular, I know the open edition that he released with Verse that kind of coincided with those auctions minted quite a lot. I mean, over 8,000 pieces came out of that one long-form drop. And then he has another event coming up soon. I don't know if it's going to be a 1-of-1 or some kind of long-form piece also. Definitely just doing a lot and making the rounds. Almost every exhibit or big major art fair, there's some Zancan thing there. So I mean, how do you feel about that as an invested collector?

Speaker B: Yeah, somehow I've just felt myself drawn to art by Zancan. So I live in a, you could say, quite a countryside area where I live here in India, and I've always been surrounded by nature since I was born, and I've gone on long walks with my granddad on where we stay, on our farmhouse. And I just love nature and having trees around. And I think a lot of his art, as opposed to others— and I'm not saying one art is better or the other— but it brought another perspective of nature while also creating some sort of a twist on it. Like, it wasn't exactly just trying to copy nature. nature, but doing that with code while also having his own unique style while blending it with other elements which may not be natural, like say Monoliths or other things, I thought was really cool. And it seems that a lot of other people thought as well. So I just love the art and where it's coming from. And then when you try to dig into more of a background of what the artist does, And how they apply their art in terms of plotting it on paper and the kind of depth that you need to go to trying to get into the finer details. And I've ordered a multiple number of prints and the kind of personalization that he does for each and every collector and how kind he is otherwise just as a human being, how he also collects art from various other people and generally what he thinks about art and life because I've met him also a couple of times afterwards, like much later after collecting from him. I just have this sort of relationship where I just want to try and get as much as possible because I think he is probably there in the top digital artists of our age. And if you see the first drop of Zancan on Verse platform was curated by Tyler Hobbs, who was another one of our— I think one of the OGs in the the crypto NFT art space. And also he used to be a painter, an oil painter, previously before he started coding and working on art. So there is that kind of background of artistic vision which was always there. If you've seen, I've seen some of his oil paintings and they were also absolutely brilliant. So that always helps, I think, and it shows through your work. And it's not necessary to become successful as a crypto artist, you need to be an artist in general, but I think in this case it shows through in his work. And about the supply, I don't know. I guess again, my answer is that the market will do its thing, and an open edition is kind of like letting market demand find its balance, because as much demand as is there will get minted out. Maybe collectors need some sort of a break after that, and that's why there may not have been so much secondary action, which is normal, I guess, for an open edition. because as much as people wanted to, they minted it, and whoever wanted to got a piece. So only action on secondary would probably take some time. And on that one as well, I think I minted quite a bit. Probably I was the second highest number. And that was a unique experiment in itself, an open generative edition. I don't think that had been done before because the artist needs to have the confidence that the algorithm will keep delivering great outputs no matter how many are minted. I think that was a pretty cool thing and historic in its own way. It will continue to do well, in my opinion. It's gone to that place where, like Tyler or Dmitry, where every work that they mint is thought through and worked upon. It's not just artists minting or experimenting with things, but really putting thought into it and creating something new and different. So I think it works in Zancan's case and probably in many other artists' cases as well. But again, time will tell how things will go. I love the art a lot, as you can tell.

Speaker A: Definitely can tell. An interesting perspective on Zancan there. I mean, I know I got some of the open editions. Being able to buy with credit card made it a little too easy, which, you know, now we can do on fxhash, by the way.

Speaker B: Yeah. That's pretty cool.

Speaker A: Do you want to talk a little bit about the Alpha Fund then, since we brought it up, and what you're doing there? First of all, like, great name, by the way.

Speaker B: Thank you. So Alpha stands for appreciation and love for art, for fine art, and I founded the fund because I'm passionate about the generative art community and about collecting. And I've, over a period of the last 2 years, I've collected from and interacted with and met with hundreds of artists and also collectors, and this community has no parallel. I believe that it does have a future, both culturally as well as financially, and we are in a place where blockchain and wallets and seed phrases are not things that most people understand today. It's very difficult for people to get in because the friction, learning friction, is massive. From wherever I spoke to friends who are not into crypto and NFTs, they feel like NFTs are just PFPs and, you know, they're just being speculative and nothing else. Still, surprisingly, not many people have heard of Art Blocks or fx hash or the art movement. Like, can NFTs still have that kind of value other than just speculative value? And The answer to that, those who are in the community already, is yes, 100% they can. But that's where the opportunity lies, that before the big museums, before the big galleries, and before the huge interest comes in, which it definitely will for this era of digital art, we as collectors, can we get together and try and get the best pieces for the fund and own them collectively? While having some fun in the process and doing some cool things in the process. Because a lot of the artists who are now, we know, are already quite good have pieces and prices that are too much for a single person to buy. If they wanted to buy, say, a 1-of-1 from Tyler or Zancan, it would be really difficult. So why not get together and hold them together for a long period of time and have fun at the same time. And that obviously is quite a difficult thing to pull off in a bear market, which I was aware, but now it was the best time to build as well. So I'm happy to let it go at its own pace. We, we are not in a hurry, and we've already collected 2 pieces. One was the Zancan 1 of 1. The second one was by Golid, actually, from his latest 1 of 1 series called Expanse Sea World. So We got that one as well for the fund. And I want to focus on trying and getting art which otherwise individual people can't get so that we can own them collectively and then do cool things on the side, work with artists to do editions and airdrop for holders of the token and build something like an artist and collector community together. By no means is this the first— am I the first person to try and do this. I think a couple of funds and others are already doing this, but what I'm trying to do is in a Web3-friendly way so that you don't need You know, go through an investment fund or something like that. If you have Ethereum, you can directly just buy a token and you automatically are that type of fractional owner of the treasury of the fund. So that's my idea and I think it'll be cool to see. So far we've raised around 86 ETH and if you're able to raise more, I think with time and it will be lots of fun to do this. Collecting together. And the way I got into this was because previously, like I said, I was in ApeDAO, and ApeDAO was a collective of people who owned Bored Apes together, and that was a fun journey as well. So that liquidated— members voted to liquidate it. And then for some time I was just collecting art, and I thought now is the time we can build something and own art together.

Speaker A: How does something like this work? You know, you, you get the token It's fractionalized ownership. And so if I bought one, I guess if the value of the art went up, then I could in theory sell that to someone else because they might want to buy it thinking that it represents a higher value or total value of the portfolio as the portfolio value goes up. Or is there also going to be some kind of like disbursement in the future, 5, 10, 20 years down the line? If you decide to liquidate any of the pieces, does that just then get distributed evenly amongst Yeah, that's the idea eventually.

Speaker B: Although I have to say that in the short term, there's no guarantee that the price of the token on, say, OpenSea or any marketplace will exactly represent the price or the value of the treasury. Because first of all, the value of the treasury also may be slightly subjective depending on the liquidity on the pieces that you hold. But at the same time, It just depends on who really wants to buy in and what they value it at. And technically, yes, it's feasible that as the value of the artwork goes up, people who want to be part of the fund or have fractional ownership will be willing to pay higher prices if the value goes up. But I'm looking at it more from, again, a long-term perspective where eventually it transitions to become a DAO where the holders of the token can vote on a council of members who are making all the decisions. And if all members eventually decide that maybe 5 years down the line or at some point the art has become valuable enough that they want to sell it, yes, the Ethereum can be dispersed in the percentage ownership of the tokens. And we did this in the case of ApeDAO. Those who owned the tokens of the DAO were able to claim their share of back from the treasury after we sold everything.

Speaker A: I don't know that I'll ever come into some ETH that I'll be able to invest, but it's pretty appealing because both of us are so focused on Tezos that something someday, like getting more into the ETH side, this would be a good way for someone who's maybe not so researched to approach collecting in like a very fixed price way.

Speaker B: Exactly. And the fund will own pieces which will otherwise not be part of anything else, right? Like, for example, if you look at the Zancan 1 of 1, it's one of his most beautiful pieces and nobody else will ever have it. This fund will be the owner, the sole owner of that piece. And eventually, if these artists do well, which I think they will, this will be the only way, at least for people who don't have the means to shell out more than $50K or $100K at a time, to be part of the journey of this artist and of the generative art space.

Speaker C: I think you've already given us some of the reasoning why you haven't collected some of the newer grail-ish projects on FXHash, whether it's from a timing perspective because you have a small baby, whether it's because prices are going up and just things are getting more competitive. Are there any projects that are newer that you are waiting to get in on? And what will be your criteria for like getting into some of those projects? You know, some examples include September, Coronado, the Melissa Wiederrecht projects, for example.

Speaker B: Of course, I would love to get in on these at some point. September I really like, but I haven't been able to get into it. I was looking at it and somehow the price just kept going up and up. And then I kind of have that remorse where I could have gotten in so early and now I have to pay such a premium. And it's just a fallacy, but it's just a mindset of, you know, you could have had it at a lower price and now you feel some sort of regret to pay a higher price for something which have been lower priced. So maybe it's some of that. I fall for that as any other human being. You see things minted out and then just people or flippers just immediately selling higher on the marketplace just after minting out, and people are readily buying it as well. So I mean, there's a market and there's a market for flippers as well, but I do feel bad just buying from flippers who have gassed out the drop or just been online 24/7. Just kind of scalping that amount of money. I'd rather that that money goes to artists. So I prefer if it's a Dutch auction or something like that where things don't sell out as quickly or it's more fairly priced. But again, like you said, it's really tough to keep track of all the drops. I mean, I was just seeing what's the highest volume in the last 7 days and there's this project by Anna Lucia, Action System, which is pretty cool. A small like 50 edition work. And it seems to have done pretty well as well. It actually minted out on my birthday, so obviously I was too busy and not available online to kind of take part in the Dutch auction. I like this collection. Maybe at some point I'm going to get in on that, and maybe September as well, like you mentioned.

Speaker A: I'll send you a picture of my framed Coronados. Maybe that'll get you interested in that project.

Speaker C: It's—

Speaker B: yeah, yeah, tell me more about the Coronados. Check it out. What is this all about?

Speaker A: Maybe a fun question as we start to wrap it up that could speak a little bit more to the way that you collected and projects on FXHash that you like. Are there any projects that you were surprised by that you went really hard on that then didn't become popular? Maybe you thought the art was really good or you really liked the artist and you were just surprised the market didn't agree?

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, there's quite a few projects like that. One is the unicorns, like you said. I thought they were pretty You know, they were gonna be like the PFPs of fx hash, and turns out that they weren't. You know, there was a frenzy in the beginning, and I collected a whole bunch, but I don't regret it. It's okay. They're unicorns, and they're, you know, I probably spent 1,000 Tez on it or something, and I've hedged my bets, so I'm okay. There's this other project called Window by Damien Seguin. I think that was one of the earliest projects as well. I really liked it and it's way down now from where it used to be. And also sometimes maybe it's because, you know, it's availability bias, right? At that time you only had a few projects to choose from and there was a lot of scam that was also being minted because fxhash was an open platform. So anything even remotely good or by a good artist or a known artist was already pumping hard a few months in. So maybe it's the availability bias. As more and more art gets available, people really try and focus on the amazing art, and it doesn't happen by way of people thinking about it so much so that just the market doing its thing. So there's another project which I thought was pretty cute. I forget now what it's called. I think I mentioned on Toxy As well. One second.

Speaker A: Is it an animated piece? Are you thinking of Vortex?

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, Vortex. Oh, how did you— you read my mind.

Speaker A: We have a huge list in front of us of all the projects you're the number one collector of. Yeah, so yeah, you're a big collector on Vortex. You're the top collector there, and also Abbreviated Curves by Landlines, another animated piece that you're the top collector.

Speaker B: Yeah, Landlines. I love Landlines, makes great art, a lot of supply. So maybe the supply is the thing there. On what happened in terms of the market. I'm not saying that the art is good or bad. The art I like, which is why I collected so much. I think it's an animated piece also, right?

Speaker A: Yep.

Speaker B: Other early projects, I think Loom is another one by Andreas Rau. Andreas, again, great artist. I think has maybe stayed stable around that price where it used to be. I think it's a great project. The texture really comes out. It doesn't seem like it's a coded piece at all. Others which have got the recognition that is due, I think Contrapuntos have really done well, even though it's a, it's a large collection and it's beautiful. Another one I like is by, I think, Machio. Again, I forget the name of the collection.

Speaker A: Oh, Machio 135.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Shattered Moons.

Speaker B: Yeah, I like Shattered Moons. As a collection, but I don't think a lot of action has happened on it recently.

Speaker C: You see it in drips and drabs, but I think it's definitely lower than what we would've expected. And I think lower than what we expected when it first came out as well. It didn't do that immediate 10x though.

Speaker B: There was another one called Monuments.

Speaker C: Classic.

Speaker A: Yeah, Kingdom of U2.

Speaker B: Kingdom of U2, yeah. So I thought that was again, a pretty cool Cute collection. Hash cities I love again because this is something where it's got these moons changing and it's it's changing with time. Like collections like that have done pretty well on Ethereum, for example. Gazers have done really well recently. So I thought that something like hash cities, which are great to look at, beautiful, but also they change with time and they have that special secret. date on which there's fireworks and explosions. Which are the other collections I'm like a big owner of? Maybe we can discuss those.

Speaker A: Contra, definitely. You're the top holder of Contra with 27, which is insane.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Gossamer is a big one, especially because Lars Wander is having what we might call a moment right now. Yeah, with a bunch of his projects pumping to $1,000.

Speaker B: Those used to be 2 tez, I think.

Speaker A: Yep.

Speaker C: But what made you go in on them?

Speaker B: If you can see my OBJKT profile, there are a couple of early works by Lars Wander that I own there. So I think the fact that I knew what this artist is capable of and not the algorithm of Gossamer itself. And then for this, I think I have to thank Tony Marinara because he posted about Lars and he probably bought his first work on Hic Et Nunc or OBJKT. And I saw it just on my Twitter feed and I immediately loved it and I went in on it. And then he dropped eventually on fx hash and at that time nobody really knew who Lars was. I just knew that he's capable of this amazing art piece that I bought from him. I was like, it's a great artist, it's $2, I'm gonna buy as much as I can. And it worked out in that case, but it just happened because of information asymmetry, right?

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: And this is what even I was discussing with TheFunnyGuys. I was discussing with him, like, what is it about fx hash that is so exciting us is that it's information asymmetry. All the people on Ethereum really had no idea that this was going on. And eventually when they find out and collectors come in, this is going to be another Art Blocks where, you know, one tez can go to 100 or even 1,000 times because the people just didn't know about it. The piece I was talking to you about by Lars is called Splat. I think it's his second piece ever minted. Those I think were available again for like $1 or something like that, like insanely low amount. And eventually he launched on fxhash. So I was super excited that I knew an artist. And like I said before, it was at that time so much was being minted. If you knew the artist, you were going to go for it.

Speaker C: Mm-hmm.

Speaker B: And it was just lying there for a long time because A lot of projects were not minting out. Maybe people didn't like a lot of the outputs, like the opinion was divided, like some of them are nice, some not nice. So why would you roll the dice on something like this where you might not like the output? At least that was the opinion of people at that time. Same thing for Repeater as well. The groups I was part of, people were saying that some of the Repeaters were not so nice, some of them are nice. I was like, I'm just gonna try and get something. Maybe I get something nice, but I'll just keep it.

Speaker A: Another one that you're deep on is Tych by Roxanne. You're the number 2 collector there. But interestingly, at least from what I could tell, you haven't seemed to get many of his more recent projects, which I think we're both big fans of on the podcast here. And as far as new projects go, one of the few that you've gone in on more recently was Ichigo. You're the number 1 collector there.

Speaker B: Like I said, that old habit doesn't go away of trying to do the degen thing and go super deep on art and artists that you like. And Rudxane, again, amazing artist. I love the Tych project. I got a print also from him, which was beautiful, and it was kind of him to sign and send one to me. And I do own some of his other projects, which I like. But just somehow I haven't been able to get into his other ones. I probably missed the mint or something like that, but I do like his other projects as well. Like the latest one, Garabatos, I think that was a really nice one. I just missed it. And this other one I like is Disrupt, but I like very particular palettes and those palettes really haven't come to the market or have been very expensive. the rare palettes in Disrupt that I've been looking for. I own one of them. I think the palette is called Hobbes. Oh, it's the Hobbes palette.

Speaker A: Yeah, appropriate.

Speaker B: It's named after a type of Hobbes.

Speaker C: It's full incomplete control, 100%.

Speaker B: Which one were you mentioning afterwards?

Speaker A: Ichigo, which is the new one from Studio Yorktown.

Speaker B: I just like the art and it has some references to Japanese culture and places. I'm a big fan of Japan. I've traveled there maybe 4 or 5 times. I'm a big fan of Japanese culture. I thought the art was beautiful and still think it is. So I just went deep on it. I just kind of bought a lot of the ones that I liked.

Speaker A: You know, it's been going for almost an hour and a half now, so we should probably find a question or two to wrap it up. Trinity, do you want to throw out maybe a fun, quick question?

Speaker C: Here's what we've been throwing out recently, which is If you could have us interview anybody within the general fxhash ecosystem, who should we add to our list? Who do you want to hear from?

Speaker B: Did you already interview Artnome?

Speaker C: Not yet.

Speaker A: Not yet, no.

Speaker B: You should have him, definitely. I met him in NFT NYC. He is a complete believer in crypto art and especially Tezos platform as well. Great guy and also has a big traditional art background. And knows a lot about generative art and its history and has been a proponent basically from the start. Like, he collected Manolos and probably, I don't know, all other great crypto art back when nobody else was even collecting, back when probably they were worth a few dollars. So I think very knowledgeable person and is doing some good work in the community. I think it would be great to have him on if he is able to come on your platform. I think you should get him.

Speaker C: I think we have a connection, so we'll have to go for it.

Speaker A: Yeah, that's a great suggestion. I've got one last quick one here, which is, how do you enjoy your collection? You know, you've got such a large collection across so many chains. You've gone deep on so many projects. What is your favorite way to actually like sit back and enjoy it? Or do you even have the opportunity to?

Speaker B: Up until now, I really didn't have the opportunity, but the cool thing is Every once in a while on OBJKT, I have these notifications on where I get offers on some of my artworks. And I look at these offers and I'm like, oh cool, someone wants to buy this. Let me check out what's so cool about this artwork that someone else wants to buy it or has an offer on it. And I'm like, oh wow, I own this piece. Sometimes I even forget so many amazing pieces that I own. That's one way. Another way is through prints. I try and order prints of artworks, but recently I found that there's not much space left to put these prints on the wall. So eventually, maybe through Alpha, we might create a gallery, a physical gallery of sorts, where all of these physical signed pieces from these amazing artists can be shown and displayed for the world. That will be another way to enjoy it. To take a look at it in a way which is not on the screen but on a printed piece of paper and just look at it and admire it. And for a long time I had this app, I think Deca app, which allows you to have a widget on your home screen on your phone where it kind of shuffles through all the artwork you have and it shows you a new artwork almost every couple of hours or something. So that's another way to kind of check out randomly in your gallery or even in other people's galleries, all the art that is out there. And if you like something, you can always get in there and try and find out, oh, where is this, or which collection it is from. And the last way, I guess, is through gifting. So what I'd done recently was— so Zancan has this art website where you can, if you own the piece, even if it's an edition piece, you can order a print, a signed print. So So instead of ordering it for myself, I was kind of gifting it for birthdays and special occasions and to friends who may or may not be in crypto or NFTs already and send them these just as, you know, delivered to their place as an art print. What I found is almost everyone was like, wow, what is this thing? You know, first of all, tell me more about it. And most of them also are like, who the hell is Kylo? Because they don't know my in our name as well. So it's really been a fun thing, you know, sending prints to people who know nothing about digital art and then trying to explain to them what it's all about and what makes it so special. I find that process lots of fun, and I hope more artists do this thing where— I think some artists have done, but I hope more artists do this thing where you can order prints directly from them so that it supports their work as well and people can enjoy these printed on their walls.

Speaker A: We're big into printing here, so yeah, love that answer from you. Lots of great ways for people to enjoy their art digitally and physically. I feel like that's a good place to end. If you're good with it, Kyle, do you have anything else you want to say? Any points that you feel like you didn't get to make that you want to make before we wrap up?

Speaker C: Final words of wisdom?

Speaker B: We pretty much covered everything. Maybe one last thing: I love that the community has come together and also is appreciating a lot of women artists and women coders, female coders as well. There has always been in world generally a bias towards males. I don't know if there's— if that is particularly true in the traditional art world. I don't have the data to back it up, but I just feel so that most of crypto is full of guys who are out there and Maybe that has something to do with, I don't know, this being a super risky market or so on and so forth, because you find the similar statistics as well in stock markets and in other places. But I'm really liking how recently a lot of women artists have gained rightful place at some of the top collections, both on fx hash as well as in other places. And I hope that continues to happen and that promotes more and more women to come into coding and learning that as a space in itself. Because in the end, it should be similar level playing field, right? Like, if you're an artist, technically, over a large enough sample size, women artists should be equally as prominent as male artists, at least 50/50. But I don't think that is the case today if you look at the statistics. So it's a good direction that we're heading. In the end, obviously the art is that speaks for itself and wins out, but I'm happy that this focus has come recently.

Speaker A: Yeah, for sure. I think that's a focus that we're starting to see more and more, at least in our corner of the NFT ecosystem on fxhash. I'll share this with you in Discord, but there actually is a team who tracks stats like that for traditional art.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker A: They put out an annual report called the Burns Halpern Report and The data supports your intuition, which is that there are not very many women who are being represented at auction and in museums like you might think from an even distribution. So I'll shoot that to you in Discord. Maybe we'll put it in the notes here as well. It's very interesting.

Speaker B: Nice. Yeah. All right.

Speaker A: Well, Kyle, it's been awesome having you on. It's been amazing to hear your perspective on collecting, getting one of the OG collectors on the platform, on the show. Always a pleasure to talk to someone like yourself and very cool to see everything you're doing in this space. Appreciate your time and I hope you had fun. I hope you enjoyed.

Speaker B: I had a great time talking to you guys and thank you so much for having me here. And also this podcast that you're doing, I think really helps the generative art space. So thank you so much for doing what you're doing, guys.

Speaker C: Thank you. It's been a pleasure.

Speaker A: Yeah, thank you. All right. That was Kylo. Hope everyone enjoyed. What a wonderful interview. Such a great opportunity to talk to him. Thanks again, Kylo, for taking the time to come on. That's it for this one. We'll see you all soon. Later.

Speaker B: Later.