Speaker A: All right, hello and welcome everyone to a very special episode of Waiting to Be Signed. We've got an interview episode for you here. I'm joined today by Steven Lee, also known as Jammasterlee on TikTok and Twitter. I would guess a lot of you listening won't know who he is or why he's on the show. So I'm gonna throw to Steve right away here to kind of tell us who you are and why you're on the show. 'Cause yeah, give us an introduction.

Speaker B: All right. Well, yeah, so basically what got me on the map, so to speak, is I made a fateful crazy decision, probably 2020, during the rise of Bitcoin's 3rd bull run, I think. And I was like, basically, fuck it, I'm gonna quit my job. I was a super just— I don't know if disgruntled is the word. I think it's more profound than that, but we'll get into that. But like, I just threw everything away basically and just plowed everything into Bitcoin all at once. I ran into this kid who convinced me, and he was super into leverage. And so My whole life triple leveraged onto Bitcoin, which means that if it drops more than 30%, I lose everything. But if it doesn't, then cash in big. And basically that post went viral-ish, at least amongst maybe that crowd. And so I had a pretty good niche following for a bit. And yeah, I tracked everything. That's probably the one thing I did right during that bull run was just keep that diary going so you could see everything happening in real time.

Speaker A: I found you on TikTok, I think probably some of your earliest posts, because that was also around the time that I was starting to get interested. in crypto.

Speaker B: Yeah, for a lot of people.

Speaker A: Yeah, I don't know how the algorithm worked, but it started sharing me your stuff. And we're actually kind of geographically close together. So maybe that was a factor too, because I was living in Brooklyn back at the time. And I was immediately intrigued and caught up in it. Probably that earliest phase of your account was like the biggest, right? In terms of like engagement and stuff.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So tell us a little bit about your background before getting into TikTok, or like why you decided to put it all on TikTok.

Speaker B: Yep.

Speaker A: And had you even like known much about crypto or Bitcoin prior to that big move, like meeting that kid?

Speaker B: Yeah, dude, you know, I knew nothing about Bitcoin and I've been reviewing my TikToks and there's a video where I'm like a couple months in and on camera I'm like, you know, I actually know nothing about Bitcoin. This is like even after I put all my money onto it. Basically I was, I wouldn't say I was necessarily like a working stiff, but like I was selling insurance. And I've always liked doing my own thing and I've always wanted to try to figure out a way to kind of hack the whole income thing.

Speaker A: Hmm.

Speaker B: Because when you do insurance, you generate renewal income and then also you're kind of your own boss. So I've always sort of like done my own thing. That was really good for a while. It was challenging. It was interesting. I mean, it was insurance, so it was kind of crazy. It was a little bit like countercultural in a sense. Like I was sort of the bad guy in it, you know? And I like that role. I like the sort of counter role. I mean, I did a good job and stuff, but at some point it just started to turn on me. Like, I just started to hate it. It started to get into my bones. I was telling a friend the other day, at one point I was diagnosed with pneumonia, shingles, and Crohn's at the same time. And, you know, the only thing that saved me was weed butter. I'm telling you, like, that got me through that. But I was super miserable and it was, it was killing my body. And I was so Sort of broken. After about 10 years of doing this, my sister was just like, dude, you gotta quit. Like, you just need to— like, you gotta change something. Like, something, you know, she, she saw a couple of my breakdowns and like, it made her cry once, just the way my body would give out on me. And so, yeah, I moved to New York City, which is where she was. And then I went to a singles event in New York during the height of COVID because there was just nothing else to do. And I didn't even expect to meet girls. I just thought, you know, there might be some other desperate guy there that I can just become friends. Like, I just need some friends.

Speaker A: Mm-hmm.

Speaker B: And that's when I ran into Bitcoin Bill. And that's how the ball started rolling, you know.

Speaker A: Well, what about like TikTok? Like, why did you decide to document it in the first place? And did you have a plan at all? Because it did kind of seem in your earlier videos, and we should say upfront here too, also that you're kind of working on editing this all together into a larger project now.

Speaker B: Right, right. That's the art piece. Yeah.

Speaker A: That's the art piece. So that there is art. This is an art podcast. So there's an art component to this.

Speaker B: Disqualifies.

Speaker A: Yeah. But there were points in the earlier content where you, it did seem like you were trying to lean into being like a lifestyle or content creator. Like there was one episode where you interviewed someone on the street and you're, or I don't know if they were a friend. So like, what was that just a plan that evolved as it went? Because I also remember you said that you did have a passion for film in your earlier videos as well. So is that kind of a plan with this whole move with Bitcoin?

Speaker B: I had been doing some filming a few years prior and like I could never quite make up my mind because it just felt like such a scary thing to jump into. And I'm the kind of person that if I do something, I fucking do it. Like, I just need to sink my teeth into something if I'm going to get into it. So I had done street interviews before. I love doing interviews like what you're doing right now. I think I just, I fucking love it.

Speaker A: Mm-hmm.

Speaker B: Especially spontaneous interviews. Yeah, there was a couple of times when I was like, this is my life's calling, but I couldn't quite bring myself to follow up on it. And so when I did the Bitcoin thing, I should say, like, the way he sold me on Bitcoin, he had 2 phones, right? And he's this hardcore, like, trading guy. And he's showing me both his phones and he's like, yeah, you know, I made $300,000 yesterday and this. And he's telling me about Bitcoin. He goes, you know, and I had a dream and in this dream I saw myself. I came back from the future to tell you that Bitcoin hit like $300,000 in 2027 or some, some weird. And I was so just hungry for something magical or transcendent or fantastical. I just needed that because my life was just so Selling it like, hi, you know, do you have disability insurance? No. Have you thought about what might happen to you if you get injured? It's like, oh God, just doing that like every day for 10 hours a day. And I was just like, fuck it. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe he did. Yeah. Fuck it. I love the stories. This is great. And I just threw my whole life on there and I just thought, let me film this. I thought this was gonna be a great story.

Speaker A: Yeah, I remember. So yeah, COVID was like the thing where all of a sudden I had all this time and I was just gaming, dude. Like, I was, you know, because I would have time in between meetings or like time in the morning and you just couldn't do anything anymore. And so I was just gaming.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And my wife was like, you play all the strategy games, like you got to learn how to make money. Apply this to something with your time. Like, stop gaming.

Speaker B: Yeah, bro.

Speaker A: And yeah. And so I had missed, you know, I had heard about Bitcoin way, way back in 2012 or 2013 when it was like $14. And I was making like $35,000 a year and I was thinking about buying $500 worth of it. And older guys at my work who were rightfully suspicious, right? Not knowing what it was. And they were like, hey man, the government's gonna make this illegal. Like you're just gonna lose your money.

Speaker B: Like don't— Throw your money away.

Speaker A: Yeah. Like, I mean, $500 was a lot to me at the time. So I didn't do it. You know, they were kind of like Gen Xers, you know, not boomers, but like Gen Xers. You know, they also had their lives kind of in order, right? And so they didn't need something like Bitcoin, like the upside of it, right? Whereas I did. And so then now fast forward, right? It's like 2020, 2021. I'm just starting to investigate it again. And I just had this epiphany of like, if there's going to be a thing that makes like millennials and Zoomers rich, like, it's going to be this, like, this is the new land. Like everyone is complaining that houses are— you can't get a house.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Houses are too expensive and they're not really building them and all these issues. And it's like, well, because Boomers and Gen Xers already have all that on lock, right? And they're like, not letting us in. But this is the thing. So to me, in my mind, it was like, maybe it's, it will go to zero. But it was that asymmetrical idea of like, this is the new virtual land that's actually real and provable, right, with the blockchain. So that's what kind of got me into it. I went into a bunch of bad stuff too. Like, I got into Cardano and Polkadot. That's not even real bad. But, you know, comparatively, yeah, I'm just putting that out there to say, like, I totally I feel you because I felt even going back that far to like the beginning of Bitcoin that there is some kind of financial despair that I think a lot of people feel.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And you just go like, I wish I could 10x. If I just 10x my money, like I'd have so few problems, but how do I do that?

Speaker B: Right. And this seems like one of the only vectors to do it. Right. Yep.

Speaker A: To kind of get back to your story. So you meet Bitcoin Bill and you just decide you're going to quit. You put everything in, like you put all your savings, Yeah. And you liquidated all of your tax-deferred stuff, right?

Speaker B: Oh yeah.

Speaker A: Put that in and then eventually even took equity out of your house and stuff.

Speaker B: Yeah. Refi.

Speaker A: Talk a little bit about what was your goal there? Like what would've been rich for you? Like what were you hoping to hit?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Like what was your process? I think your process, like you were describing, was a little bit spontaneous, but also at a certain point you must have had to sit down and say like, okay, I'm doing this and doing this and doing this and here's how I'm gonna buy stuff. And so yeah, can you walk us through a little bit of that?

Speaker B: Yeah, one, one would think, you know, just kind of going back to what you were saying. I think that very first video that I did, what you just said right there, how like there's no way I can get ahead, there's no way I can like have that great life or feel like I've risen above, especially as a guy. I think that first video that I made where I was like, fuck it, I'm— fuck the government, I'm gonna put everything back on quitting my job. Like, it just kind of plucked that cord, you know, that resonance that people felt. That was kind of my goal, I guess, like on a, like on an ideological level or whatever. Like, that was my goal, was that I could rise above and just It's like I was chained and shackled and I just wanted to like break the chains. Honestly, dude, there really was not a well-thought-out logical plan. It was pretty much Bill that had the whole mastermind thing and I was just along for the ride. And so just whatever he told me to do, I would just do.

Speaker A: Mm-hmm.

Speaker B: I was on Binance. I don't even know if you can use Binance anymore, but that was back in the Wild West where all you had to have was like a VPN and then you could jump on Binance and they had all sorts of leverage on there. I think what I thought was if I can get somewhere around $10 to $20 million, then you can kind of cruise just off the interest. And that was it. So it was like half a million into the coin, basically. I think that, yeah, half a million to $600,000 into the coin, and then you triple leverage that and that can very quickly become— Right.

Speaker A: You don't even need to hit $300K Bitcoin price if you're using leverage to get to that number, right?

Speaker B: Yeah, if it just got to like $80K or something, I think I would have gotten close because I was doing other coins too, and I was getting pretty lucky on some other coins. Like, I got in on SHIB or whatever as it was kind of blowing up, and I went— I don't know, I think I went 20x on that on $50,000 or something. It was some retarded amount of money.

Speaker A: Mm-hmm.

Speaker B: It's just crazy because, like, you— yeah, as you say, you're slaving away, right? You're just fucking slaving away. And for me, I guess I had a pretty good gig in some sense. Like, I could make anywhere between $100,000 and $200,000 a year. That's pretty good money, like, for, for me anyway. Like, I was That's pretty good, but like you're crushing yourself for it. And with SHIB, I think I made $800,000 in like a week.

Speaker A: Whoa.

Speaker B: And dude, you go cross-eyed. You can't— everyone's like, oh, I would have sold. And like maybe you would have, but like that crack goes to your head. I mean, you've never felt euphoria like that.

Speaker A: So yeah, I remember feeling excited just watching Bitcoin go to like $60,000, you know, and watching ETH go to like the $4,000s or whatever it touched, right? Um, yeah, I was just like, holy crap, like looking And I also didn't sell.

Speaker B: Right, right.

Speaker A: I rode through the entire—

Speaker B: Down to $18, back up to—

Speaker A: Yeah, I just rode it because we didn't put in nearly that amount. I was just kind of like dabbling. But I just, I remember even at the levels that I was playing at, that anxiety, like the anxiety on the up, like the cortisol just being like, oh my God, do I have to log in? Do I have to trade? Like talking to people, texting people I know who work at like this or that crypto company, like, what's your opinion? And the narrative, of course, was that Bitcoin was definitely going to go to $100,000 that cycle.

Speaker B: Yeah, this is the end of the cycles now. And now it's just gonna become normal. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker A: And I had a spreadsheet. And I was like, sitting down, I was like, well, if Bitcoin goes to $100K, then, then we'll have this much. And then that means ETH is probably gonna go here. And like, that's crazy, because we got ETH super duper cheap at like $300 or something. And I was like, so if ETH goes to like $6,000, okay, there's, there's 20x on our ETH. And I'm looking at this and I'm just like, oh, this is so sick. Because like, now I've just out of thin air conjured all this money only to have it fall out. And everyone, everyone then of course, post-top calling like, well, it was so obvious. And like this indicator, that indicator, and everyone, the revisionist history of—

Speaker B: Dude, it's such a toxic environment. Yeah, horrible.

Speaker A: And a lot of people making content, like not like you, but like people who are making like actual, like doing the charts and trying to tell you Which shitcoin and all this.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. I was trying to like be the voice of reason, I guess, in that space because yeah, everyone was just, I want 20x on this and 100x on this. And meanwhile, they're sitting in this shit apartment that like you can tell it's just they don't have it, you know what I mean? It's just because they were guys like us buying crypto, just trying to scrape, trying to have that glorious Instagram life or whatever, that this music video life. And someone's like, oh, I have the answer. And you don't care who it is. You just You want that answer and you'll just take it from anyone. I was really careful to post all the shit that I went through.

Speaker A: I think that you posted very earnestly and honestly in retrospect. At the time though, especially like in the first few months of your account, I was on the side of the disbelievers of like, this guy's doing a character. And I was like, this is like amazing content that he's doing. But I'm very convinced now, like you can, if you want to resolve the rumors now, like I don't believe you were doing a character.

Speaker B: I wish it were so, you know.

Speaker A: How did that feel like? To be posting this stuff and having people come to the comments being like, this is not real. You're doing a bit. Was that entertaining or was that like really scary? Like what, how did you feel about that?

Speaker B: I thought it was so funny. I just thought it was hilarious. And it just made me think like, yeah, you really don't fucking know what's real. And I also felt like there's almost no way I can defend myself. What am I gonna say?

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: There's nothing that I can do to convince you that I'm real if you don't believe it at this point. Because the more I say, the less real I seem. No, I'm totally— guys, I'm really real. It's like, of course he was. It's like, I just was like, I don't know, you know? And so I just found it amusing. I'm the kind of person that I just hate lying. I'm kind of honest to a fault. I just hate doing it. I'm terrible at it. First of all, I'm a horrible liar because I have a terrible memory. Like, if you tell me a secret, I'm good at keeping it because I'll forget it. I'm just sort of like all over the place. And so for me to lie is just like an absurd proposition. So I just don't. And yeah, so I guess I just found it really— I just found it funny.

Speaker A: Interesting. I mean, even going back though, and like now as you, as you're reviewing that old content and putting it together, I mean, do you see it in a different light and go like, I kind of get it? Because you, you were very exuberant, right? I think there was something about your attitude that you had this kind of like fuck it attitude, right? That, that felt— but you're pairing it with this seriousness of like this huge life move that you're making, right? And so I think it kind of felt hard to believe for people. But at the same time, like it— from what you're saying, like I think I can understand it as a manifestation of people watching didn't know like the despair you were feeling necessarily. Like you talked a little bit about it, but I don't think you talked too much about the physical aspects and symptoms of like how your job was affecting you. You just, you said like, I couldn't do it anymore. Right? Like, I don't remember you getting too deep into it.

Speaker B: Oh yeah.

Speaker A: So I think it's like now easier to understand in retrospect why you were kind of like making it that way. But also, I mean, I'm curious, like, was there a part of you that like, you are making content and even though it is kind of vlog content, like you still are putting a version of yourself up online. So do you think there was a sense of like performance or character that you were doing that there's like the honest version of Steve that you're putting online that's like a little bit different from the version of Steve that lives day to day? Or do you feel like it's really one-to-one? Because like, even for me making this show, I feel like I'm very authentically me, but I'm still conscious of the fact that it is going to be recorded and it's going to go out there.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So there is a bit of like more discipline or self-censorship or whatever, right? In the way that I behave here that I think people would say is like slightly different. So I don't know if you want to— if anything you'd say about that.

Speaker B: Well, in retrospect, now that we're sort of talking about it, like, I think it's a compliment that people thought it was fake because it's like I was dramatizing out the gestalt that everyone was feeling. It's like the fantasy, the fantasy character that they had in their head, I was actually doing. Like, I was the guy that was crazy enough to actually do it. Are you into astrology at all?

Speaker A: I have a lot of secondary exposure to it through My wife and friends, but I don't know how to do the deep charts and stuff like they do.

Speaker B: All right, well, I'll just like kind of nerd out on it just for one second. Go for it, please. So I have 3 planets in Gemini in my Midheaven, and your Midheaven is kind of like your publicly out-facing persona, like how you present to the world is your Midheaven. I have 3, and Gemini is, is this. This is communication. Like, someone who's Gemini would love doing this. So basically what that means is like I constantly at all times have a movie reel in my head of myself As I'm doing things. So I'm constantly watching myself and narrating myself. I'll do it while I'm washing dishes. I'll do it when I'm getting ready for bed. It's just, it's this weird thing that I do. And so I think that's why I desperately need to film myself. I'm on this reel and I want to present this reel. So I would turn the camera on when I would have these sort of like all-in moments, you know, where the coin drops or the coin goes up 15%. Or I just bought a huge bag of like, if I just dropped another $60,000 or like I leveraged up even more, I would turn the camera on because these are those like movie moments, you know? I think there is kind of like an awareness of when the camera's on, it's like I was more careful to, I wanted my face to show what I was feeling, you know? And I wanted that to tell the story. Like this is the actual story and I wanna tell this story.

Speaker A: You went through, I would say, a lot of phases with the channel and the earliest stuff. which is what I've seen from your edits so far, is very much like still in the bull market, right? Bitcoin is on its way up. And there's still some scares in there, right? Because even, even though you're playing with leverage, there was the move up and then move back down and move up. So I'm sure every single one of those—

Speaker B: And then yeah, the retrace. Yep. Yep.

Speaker A: I guess as a mild spoiler, eventually things do start to go wrong. And And there's other phases, though. And like, you end up getting into trying to learn to trade.

Speaker B: Yep. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker A: I'm trying to remember even some of the other— there's some other pursuits, because I, I think you still had money in crypto. But clearly, you had lost a good portion of it. But you didn't want to go back to your normal work.

Speaker B: Can't do normal life. Yeah.

Speaker A: Were those things that Bill or other folks that you had met— I imagine you must have gotten through your channel and through Bill exposed to like a wider NYC crypto community in some way. So were they kind of like, encouraging you into that trading? Or is that just because you were consuming other content from other, other people who were doing that kind of charting and stuff? So yeah, maybe talk a little bit about what happened, because obviously Bitcoin didn't make you rich to the level that you had hoped, but you were kind of trying to salvage it, right? You were trying to like figure out ways to kind of turn this still into a profession for you. So it's not really a question. I was kind of teeing up the next video for you to talk about.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, basically, we're on the way up. Speaking of just like, Iconic or even cliché stories. Like, we would rent out these race cars or like these super like powerful cars and take them out on the highway. And there was a moment where we let this girl drive, and dude, she fucking almost killed us all. Like, and I just remember narrowly avoiding that death and just thinking, man, this is such a cliché like moment. This is like just the typical too fast, too furious, whatever. So we were partying a bunch and Yeah, it just kept going up. We had that scare because it was— it had that double top, right? And on the trough, we were freaking out. Then it went back up even higher, and we just thought, oh, we're gold, like we're into the golden age of the new crypto era, and just getting super high on that. And then it had the massive crash, and I got woken up in the middle of the night, I think by my sister or something. She's like, oh, see, the coin dropped, like, are you okay? And then I immediately called up Bitcoin Bill, and, um, you're just clicking like mad trying to sell.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And I don't know if you traded on ETH during that time, but like, I don't know how the ETH network is now, but it could not handle capacity that well. And so I remember seeing my health factor. If you've ever traded on leverage, hopefully you haven't, but if you have, like, there's a health factor where it's a number. And if you have no leverage, the number is 1.

Speaker A: Hmm.

Speaker B: Something like that. Like, you're totally fine at 1. Now, if it drops below 1, that means you're about to get liquidated. And I saw it go from like 3, or it was, yeah, 3, and then 2 and then 1, and then it got to 0.95 and 0.9. And I'm like, dude, I'm fucked. And the money's still there. And the ETH network just couldn't crunch it out fast enough. And so by the time ETH caught up to me, the coin had rebounded above my liquidation level. But yeah, at that point I had lost about 80% of my original investment. So that's, yeah, 15 years of hard work just vaporized. And then of course, you know, what do you, what do you do when you lose in Vegas? Well, you go right back in trying to make it back. So Yeah, we just crash traded, just all in, and then it goes up and then we never sold, and then it goes back down and then we lose even more, and then you're getting destroyed on the gas fees. And but I think one thing that that whole experience taught me was that, um, dude, Wilson, man, I just, I just can't do normal life.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: I just can't do it. It won't happen. The end story is I finally got scammed because I thought someone else could trade for me. I lost another $30,000-$60,000. And I was like, okay, I should start sending out my resume. And at one point I was just like, you know what? Can't go back to an office, you know?

Speaker A: And that's when you got into like the TA and you were like doing like the paper trading and stuff for a while, I remember. And I can't remember like some of the other things cuz I, that stuff hasn't made it into your cut of the movie. But during all of this, I mean, yeah, obviously like the tone changed and I think also, I'm not sure if people were super nice to you once you started to lose either. I'm sure there were some very kind— Oh yeah. No, no. I'm sure there were There were some people who were kind in the comments and pulling for you, but I'm sure there were a lot of really mean folks too. So making the content during that whole arc, I mean, like, first of all, kudos for committing to like making it through that because I think a lot of people, it's easy to make content when you're feeling really up.

Speaker B: Your shit's awesome. Yeah.

Speaker A: Yeah. And you have a lot to talk about.

Speaker B: You guys are all stupid. Yeah, yeah, totally.

Speaker A: It's a whole other thing to commit and keep doing it. So like, was there ever a point though where the TikTok channel Making this stuff, did you ever think to quit, or was it starting to have any kind of negative effects on you because of the way that people were interacting with it? Or, you know, I don't, I don't know if you ever had any issues with like people harassing you outside of TikTok or not, but I know that that's something that happens to people. So was there a point at all where you were like, I'm outta here? Like, I'm just like—

Speaker B: Can't do this anymore.

Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Like what kept you, what kept you going? I mean, I, I think we have a little bit of understanding with all your Gemini. Like perhaps it is that you just got into making it and you were just like, I got the astrology thing in. Right. Yeah. So what's, Like, what, did you ever almost quit? Or have you always just been really convicted in keeping the channel going?

Speaker B: You know, what's funny is like, the only time I ever stopped making TikToks is right around now. I think it's just because like, nothing's really happening. Like, all I'm doing is I'm just, I'm just cranking away at some other projects. But it never really— I shouldn't say that exactly. Like, there was one guy, this guy named Cactus Pits, that did kind of get to me. And I did ban him for like a month. I banned him for a month and let him back on and then banned him for a month because he had some Really zingers. He really fucking— one thing he said, I was like, oh yeah, maybe I'll start a podcast. And he's like, yeah, you can call it Broke Rogan.

Speaker A: Wow.

Speaker B: I was like, damn. I was like, that one hurt. I told my friend, he's like, you know, it is kind of funny though. And I was like, yeah, I know. But I kind of loved the whole circus of it. I think I was always aware that what I was doing was just utterly unhinged, ridiculous, out of proportion. And I wanted it to be entertaining for people. And so I'm like, the crash is the best part. I mean, it's like, so that's that person that sits outside of myself that's like, no, no, keep going, keep going, keep the film going, keep it running. Like, this is gold. So I don't know if it's sadistic or whatever, but I think above all, I just wanted to tell the story.

Speaker A: Was there a point during all of that, especially as your situation got worse and worse, where you were like, did you have a— premonition is not the right word, but did you have like an intuition that Wait, I could do something with this. Like perhaps like maybe this content, I know it's hard to monetize content on TikTok, right? You have to be super, super, super big, but super big.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Like now what you're doing, right? Like even years ago when things were really rough, were you like, okay, I have to keep making this because this project of this period of my life could become something that like this movie that you're trying to put together, right? Like maybe like ever occur to you? Yeah. Or like not even millions, but like maybe it's just like something that helps you get back to even.

Speaker B: I really was in love with the story. Like, I really was enthralled by filming something that was real. And I think part of it too was, yeah, I felt a lot of compassion, I guess, or empathy, because I was one of those guys that just felt beaten down. I didn't feel like a winner. I didn't feel like I could ever be famous or like the man, you know, like that I could ever live a life that I was proud of if I didn't somehow rise above the fold. And that just meant money. It's just hard to see how money wouldn't make your life so much, like it wouldn't solve almost all your problems. Like it's just hard to not see that. And I think filming the downfall, what I really wanted, what I was sort of aware of as I was filming it is I was like, oh, maybe this will help some other guy who got his ass kicked. You know, maybe it'll help someone else not feel as, I don't know, feel as shitty. And, and then I just felt like, well, if I film this part, then I guess I would need to have some story where I come out of it, where I show like, look, you can survive this. And then another thing I was thinking too was like, even at the bottom, Wilson, like even when shit was falling apart, even when I got scammed, even dude, there was a point where I was so traumatized by the whole thing. Like my mom, she was like, look, just, just go watch a movie. Like she was horrified by the whole thing. And she took me to Fast and Furious Part 9. Dude, every car crash scene, I was just like, I couldn't fucking watch it.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: I was just thinking about my money the whole time. But I was cognizantly aware that I was happier even during those times than I ever was during selling insurance.

Speaker A: Hmm.

Speaker B: So I don't know, I was just living my life. I was making my own decisions. I wasn't just being funneled into this fucking rat race, this, this like preset whatever path that I had to walk to be considered a good citizen so I can retire comfortably and nothing bad could ever happen to me, you know, or something like that. Like, yeah, I just couldn't fucking do that, man. That shit was horrible.

Speaker A: There was a point in the series, I don't know if it was because of your family or because of your own self-discovery, but you got into Gamblers Anonymous.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And you were working with a sponsor and you were not trading. I think this was after a lot of the paper trading stuff that you were doing and trying to do all that TA. Eventually, you also said that you stopped doing that. So like, what was that like? And like, what encouraged you to get in there? I mean, I can imagine what encouraged you to get in there in the first place. But like, what—

Speaker B: Haven't you been listening, Wilson?

Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. But what was— I know it's probably something you're not really supposed to talk about that much. But to the extent that you can, like, what was it kind of like? And why did you decide to leave it? Or have you ever like kind of gone back and forth in that? Or is that just something where you've resolved like, no, this is not an addiction thing?

Speaker B: It was an up and down process. I remember I was like, oh, I gotta stop. I gotta get out. I need help. I need help. And so I would, so New York offers like free gambling addiction counseling. God bless them. It's funny, I've since kind of gone more conservative, but dude, those liberal programs, like they really help. And I guess I'll just call her Jenny or something. And she, you know, we, we would talk a little bit. Then it was like, I was trying to work at a restaurant making fucking fuck all, right? $15 an hour, $20 an hour. And it's actually what I'm doing a little bit now. But at the time I was just like, oh, I can't do it. And so I would jump back into Bitcoin. Yeah, like, no, ride the wave. And looking at Bitcoin Bill's lavish lifestyle. And so then I quit. But then once I got scammed, I was like, okay, that's it. And then I started doing that. So it wasn't like a group, it was just me and her over Zoom. And I still see her. I still, once a month we check in and yeah, I know it's beautiful.

Speaker A: Was that something that also kind of led you towards Exploring more like religion and faith? Was that kind of part of that? Or is that something that you had a lot of exposure and interest in prior to all of this? Because there's definitely a turn too in kind of your self-care and all of that kind of recovery process where you're getting super into religion and philosophy and stuff. Yeah.

Speaker B: When you get kicked in the face multiple times, it really forces you to look in the mirror. And I've always wanted to do, I think you said lifestyle, sort of like more like spiritually Content where I try to get people to be vulnerable, where we get to see their soul, you know, you get to see them in a way that even they don't expect. And I think that was always like— I used to do these street interviews and that was kind of my goal. My very first one, I had this guy who was like, yeah, like I got invited to this weird prostitution ring or something like that, and some of the prostitutes were like underage and He's like, it freaked me out. And it was just, it was my very first interview on the street. Like, this guy's face is on—

Speaker A: Why are you telling me this, dude?

Speaker B: Yeah. And I was like, I know. And I was a little, I was like, this is for my YouTube channel. Do you mind doing it? Like, he knew everything and I'm going to post this. And I think he felt really comfortable. And I think that just blew me away. So I think the appeal back just was, it was sort of a return to, it was weird though, because I've always thought I was a pretty spiritual person. I guess I was, but The Bitcoin thing really like exposed a side of me that I was very much enraptured and entranced by the story of money, you know, and what it can do for you. And just the story of fame and fortune and letting go of that was excruciating. Like it was very fucking painful. Many, many nights crying, many tears, like just depressed as fuck for several, several months.

Speaker A: I mean, were there any books or philosopher? Or so, like, what, like, what did you gravitate towards? That is— I get the sense that you've explored a lot, but what do you feel like, of everything that you consumed, what do you feel helped you the most come through to the other side of this?

Speaker B: Strangely enough, or maybe not, I don't know. I don't— I think the crypto bros will appreciate hearing this, but, uh, dude, Jordan Peterson. Maybe I googled like meaning in life or something. I was just so low, and like Peterson just came up and he just kept popping up in my feed. And at first I was like listening to him like, oh, he's not giving any trade advice. And I just fucking got rid of him. And then he came up later after I sort of hit bottom. And yeah, I had this moment where I was lying on my bathtub floor, like just lying in my bathtub and the shower was on. So the shower is just like, just dribbling whatever on my face as I'm just like lying in my bathtub. And I remember thinking, I just asked myself like, yeah, do you want to go on?

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Like, do you wanna, do you wanna just keep doing life? And, um, there was just this part of me inside that, and maybe this is why I kept filming, like, this is just part of me that was like, yeah, dude, you're doing great. I don't know where the fuck that came from.

Speaker A: Mm-hmm.

Speaker B: The whole time there was just this sort of kind of joyful, I construed it as sort of like God. And I was, I was just like, why the fuck is he so cheerful? This is just like, my life is just, you know, I've totally Fuck myself up. So from that moment, yeah, I started listening to JP, Jordan Peterson. He just had so many great little things that he would say. One of them was, uh, what was it? Oh yeah, he goes, the nobler the aim, the better your life.

Speaker A: Hmm.

Speaker B: And he's like, and that's a very interesting thing to know. And I was getting into the whole dopamine thing and how your brain works, and like, you can only feel good if you're moving towards a valued goal. And so then the highest goal. So he had this thing where it's like the greatest good of which you can conceive. And I like that because I used to go to church and they would always be like, oh, like you have to do the mission of God. Now I was always like, I don't fucking know what God— I don't know what I'm supposed to do. Like, am I supposed to take you by the shoulders and say, you know, believe in Jesus, you know, whatever? Like, is that what I'm supposed to do? Like, do you, Wilson? Like, do you know Jesus is the way? Like, and it just never really appealed to me. But then, you know, when he was like the greatest good of which you can conceive, and I'm like, oh, well, The greatest good I can conceive of is to make videos, uh, to help people, whatever, just to grow or to help them feel like they're known. Or so that kind of started the, the comeback, I guess you could say.

Speaker A: Well, your room looks very clean, so I think he would approve.

Speaker B: Step one, man. Yeah, it took me 6 months to clean this room.

Speaker A: Yeah. And then I told you we weren't using the video for this and you're like, goddamn.

Speaker B: I almost just shut it off, dude.

Speaker A: Yeah, like walked away from From this whole thing. Yeah, I mean, I would say personally, I am not a huge fan of his, but the way that I approach any religion or philosophy personally is that if it's helping people and it's not hurting me, then that's good.

Speaker B: Right. That's a good baseline. Yeah.

Speaker A: I think there's aspects of probably what he says that are not so good, but it sounds like you're kind of crystallizing around the aspects that sound, I think, pretty unobjectionable. So, right. Yeah, I don't think anyone would say like, have have noble goals and pursue those is a bad idea. And so it's awesome to hear that was helpful to you. What about Bitcoin Bill? Are you still in touch with him or any of the other characters? Like, there's a few other folks that you kind of float in and out, but he's the one who's the most consistent. So are you still like friends, like with him? What is he? Is he like someone who was just like rich and just playing this whole time? Or like, how wrecked did he get in all this? Because you said he's, he's still living a pretty good lifestyle.

Speaker B: Yeah, I actually don't know. I assume he is. He was living a pretty good lifestyle when I got wrecked. He got wrecked, but he was— I mean, he was near— he was close to $100 million.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: He was $60 to $80 million. Like, he had 30,000 ETH at one point, which was utterly disgusting. It was bigger than like Grayscale. It was bigger than a lot of these names you hear are like in the media.

Speaker A: Yeah. So Yeah.

Speaker B: So I don't know how he's doing, but for Bill, yeah, what I would say is I think Bill really was living out his calling. Like he had lost big fortunes multiple times and it never really dissuaded him. It never deterred him from trying again. So probably it was just the life he was cut out to do. I think it was an unhealthy relationship. Like it was kind of, I don't know if codependent's the right word, but like we kind of fed off each other. Like he was sort of the god and I was sort of like the worshiper. That's what it felt like.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Messianic figure or demagogue. And like, I kind of would just feed his ego and we would always show up at parties together. And I was sort of like his security blanket in some sense, cuz I was sort of the adoring fan.

Speaker A: Mm-hmm.

Speaker B: When things were good, it was great. But then when it turned, obviously it started to get a little like a lot of finger pointing, a lot of wanting to blame him.

Speaker A: Mm-hmm.

Speaker B: In some sense. And yeah, look, there's an aspect of that, right? Like, it's like, sure, I think he may have abused some of his influence. But I think he just didn't know any better either. And then also like, I'm a man, I had to roll my own demise. So I guess the short story is that we're not, we're not friends. We don't really talk anymore. Just the other day I was kind of like, you know what? Like I've, I, you know, I've done worse. I've done, I've done horrible things to people, you know? And it's just like, shit happens.

Speaker A: Yeah. I just can't help myself with things like this. 'Cause like for me, the way I function and the value that I think like I provide professionally or however is I, Like to hear ideas and expand and add onto them. So take it or leave it. I know he never was shown on the channel and perhaps he doesn't want his face out there, but it could be a very poetic moment in your project to actually like get him on and talk about it after the fact. Right. 'Cause you also seem to have moved past a lot of it, right? The bad feelings and yeah. To kind of just like reminisce with him and also talk about, is he even aware of a lot of the content that you've made maybe since you've parted ways and stuff like that?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So we can cut that out if you like, but like just kind of as an idea that popped into my head, it was like, oh, like that could be a great button on the end of the story of this movie that you're putting together. If he would do it, which probably he wouldn't if he's so like, doesn't wanna be doxxed. Right.

Speaker B: I really appreciate you saying that. That's a really interesting idea. Wow. Yeah, that's powerful.

Speaker A: I just wanted to get it out while I was, um, thinking about it.

Speaker B: No, that's really, that's really interesting.

Speaker A: As a viewer of your content up until now where I'm actually talking to you right in real life, like as someone who's viewed and consumed it, and I'm pretty sure I have seen all of it. That is one of the big questions I have as a viewer is like, what is up with this guy? And like, what's he like? Because you— he's always off. Well, not always, but in the moments where you film, he's off screen and you don't hear voice. You know, we just hear you kind of talking. You're like, Bill's over there and he's got his 2 phones and a laptop and like, yep, we're having a trading session and—

Speaker B: The unveiling of Bitcoin Bill.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I think, yeah, that would be interesting to me for sure to see. Yeah. So let's talk about what you're up to now. I mean, obviously you're working on pulling all this TikToks down and editing them together, which I'm sure is a hell of a process.

Speaker B: Yep.

Speaker A: Do you have a ballpark of how many total hours of content you put up online? And then how many years of real time is it? It's like 4 years of content.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Calendar years. But then how many hours?

Speaker B: 2020 to 2023, probably something like that. Or at least of the kind of core story. It's a lot. I mean, it's a shitload. I was looking at 5 or 6 videos a day, and that took me like— I feel like it took me 5 months to get through it all. I wonder if it's maybe because they were short videos too, so maybe it was just like 40 hours, or maybe it was 100. I don't know, but it's a bit of a bear to put together. Like, I've done 3 rounds of edits, and then I'm on the 4th round right now where I'm realizing that I kind of need to like splice it up, and because it— just to keep it moving. So it feels like a giant jigsaw puzzle. You have like a million pieces and you're just trying to like organize 'em by color and then trying to put 'em together. So that's, yeah, that's kind of what it's like right now.

Speaker A: And you're talking about editing just like this first chapter, right? Not even like the whole thing, or, cuz I, there, I'm just thinking of what I've seen. So is there more content that you've edited together beyond what you've shared with me, like that you're still doing passes on, or have you just focused on that first kind of like chapter or so that I've seen?

Speaker B: Yeah, I've sifted out the entire story. I've done 3 rounds of sifting. And so that's either like trimming or even just like getting rid of some videos. So yeah, I've seen the entire story up until the point I think where I hit New Year's of 2022, I think. And that's the year that I cleaned my room.

Speaker A: Mm-hmm.

Speaker B: And so my room was finally clean and I was— I wait tables right now, like on the weekends. And then I crank the shit outta Torah and ancient Hebrew during the week. So I'm super like into the spirituality thing, I guess. But yeah, that's where I feel like the series might— that's a good stopping point in the series, just New Year's, you know? And I'm 10 days to New Year's. I'm very just like nervously, I just don't want shit to blow up on me cuz I've been fired from a couple jobs as I tried to get back to like sort of normal life. Even waiting tables to me felt like inadequate, I don't wanna say illusion, but just it still doesn't feel like real life, which is great. I don't want real life.

Speaker A: Mm-hmm.

Speaker B: But I had just fucked up so badly with Bitcoin and with getting scammed and with losing a couple jobs. And like, my mom, I think, probably ended up— she ended up in the hospital during this from stress. And I think it was, it was for me. I feel like it was her watching me go through this. And so I just felt like the biggest fuck-up. Like, my relationship with myself was all but destroyed. And so cleaning the room and like, I would have temper tantrums at work. I almost got in a fight at work. I was just sort of You know, I was a little bit unhinged, but it started to come together and had really mastered myself. And then I have a 10-day countdown to New Year's, and then that's kind of the last video that I edited.

Speaker A: So, so how long do you think it's gonna be in total? Like, is it like 2 hours, 3 hours? Like once you condense it down?

Speaker B: I hope to get it to under 2 hours just so people will sort of, I don't know, we'll see. As a content creator, you're always worried about time length. Like, oh shit, I don't wanna be too long, but Yeah, I think it depends.

Speaker A: Like, I think it depends on what your plan is to release it or share it. And is this something that you actually imagine people consuming through a website or somewhere online, buying in chunks and episodes, or—

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Do you actually want it to be like shown potentially at festivals or something like that? And those 2 things don't have to be, I think, exclusive to one another. So I work in video games and there's a game company called Double Fine. And they take 5, 6 years sometimes to make their games. And they have a documentary crew embedded with them that they fund and pay, but they don't, I don't think they really do any editorial on that, on the edit to the final product.

Speaker B: Huh.

Speaker A: And they finish the game and then they release the documentary and they release it all on YouTube.

Speaker B: That is cool.

Speaker A: It's not 90 minutes, it's not 2 hours, cuz they're taking that many years, right? And it's like 12 hours. of stuff, but each episode is like 20, 30, 40 minutes long.

Speaker B: Okay. So they do chop it up a bit.

Speaker A: Yeah, they chop it up. And I mean, I think they have to for probably YouTube, like wouldn't let you upload it. But also I think it helps with the storytelling to have moments, these milestones, like things that happen.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: And I, I love that stuff. I recommend it to everyone. You don't have to be a gamer because it's not about playing a game. It's about making a game and the people involved. And like you see people get hired and people get fired and they're very transparent and open about that.

Speaker B: It's a common story. It's like a relatable story. Yeah.

Speaker A: And a lot of people work and they understand what it's like to work.

Speaker B: No, exactly.

Speaker A: So it's like a very real—

Speaker B: How to build something and—

Speaker A: Yeah. I'll send you the links to it so you can kind of see what they're about. 'Cause it's an example of how to do, I think, long-form documentary really, really well.

Speaker B: That's really interesting. Yeah.

Speaker A: I hope they continue to do it because this is a kind of spoiler. So they've done 2 of them and at the end of the second one, their company got bought by Microsoft and they're like literally talking to legal and the business dev guy. Trying to make sure that they can still make these documentaries once they're absorbed into— oh my God, they were independent. So I don't know if they got a resolution to that. I can't remember, but I really hope so because those things are, they're so raw and so fascinating.

Speaker B: They're gold. Like they really, they kind of touch you.

Speaker A: Yeah. And cause none of the people are actors, they're all real and they're all—

Speaker B: Right. That's what I mean.

Speaker A: Their own shit.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So yeah. Have you thought about how to release your movie? Sorry.

Speaker B: Like, have you thought about it at all? No, no. I mean, I haven't. I guess I'm realizing I have my own, I guess I have a style that I'm trying to go for and I'm just experimenting with it now, but I haven't really even thought about it. Like, I don't know if, yeah, I really don't know. I don't know if anyone would watch it. I don't know if it'd be good or if I should hire someone or— I was gonna say, it kind of makes me a little sad about like the getting bought out by Microsoft. That seems to be like the goal of every startup. Like that's when they like get put out to pasture is they get bought out by Microsoft and then it just joins the monolith.

Speaker A: For them, it was not actually a goal because they had been a company making games for 20 years or so, right? Independent the whole time. They had these games. I don't know if you ever played games when you were a kid, but you might know like Day of the Tentacle and Maniac Mansion. And they had a game with like actually a lot of their games.

Speaker B: I have like Donkey Kong, dude.

Speaker A: Okay. No, but this would have been, this is '90s. This is all stuff that was released in the '90s on PC, early PC gaming stuff. And they even had like Jack Black Before he was super famous doing voice acting.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker A: Um, and they, because of that relationship, he still comes back and does like VO for them on their projects from time to time at like a probably dirt, dirt cheap rate.

Speaker B: Yeah. He's a good guy.

Speaker A: Yeah. But they just, because of how long they spend on their games and how over budget they go, getting bought out was kind of my read of it was it was kind of a necessity to continue as a company.

Speaker B: They just couldn't sustain the model that they had or whatever.

Speaker A: Yeah. And so in order to keep the team together and like To have some hope of continuing to do what they do, they have to kind of cross their fingers and pray that like, you know, getting involved with this big conglomerate isn't gonna mess them up too much.

Speaker B: Doesn't just absorb them into the Borg.

Speaker A: Yeah. I think we actually kind of touched on everything here, but here's a question. Like, after you release the movie, what are you gonna do? Are you gonna keep filming and doing TikTok or are you just kind of, cuz you're gonna get, get all this time back first of all, right? You're not gonna be just editing and doing all this stuff. So are you gonna do more philosophy, religious stuff? Like, are you gonna start speaking Hebrew on TikTok? Like what's—

Speaker B: Well, I kind of just touch it every day. It doesn't take up a whole lot of time. It's probably like 20, 30 minutes a day. I feel like that's a good process. And now I'm kind of moving into wanting to do like lectures online. So I'm working on a YouTube video talking about like how the Bible might have gotten written. I just love ancient history. Like I'm, I'm a gamer at heart. I'm like a fantasy gamer at heart.

Speaker A: Mm-hmm.

Speaker B: So anything ancient that's fantastical, dude, I'm in. Like, I guess you could say I'm religious, but like, I'm down with the Atlantis story, man. I'm down with pyramids being power plants and just aliens. I'm down with all of that.

Speaker A: I have a total soft spot for Graham Hancock stuff. I'm saying, you know, I'm like, okay, but why is it like, why is it like that? And the flood myths, right? And like, why do all these cultures all over the world have these same flood myths?

Speaker B: And like, yeah, the flood myth is really interesting.

Speaker A: I think that I am a conspiracy-minded person, but I always try to keep it a little bit at a distance, but I heard him on like Duncan Trussell and Rogan and stuff, and I was like, whoa, this guy is like—

Speaker B: I got so into it when I first heard him. Yeah, I sent a clip to my friend. I'm like, dude, did you see this? And he's like, dude, what are you talking about? Like, you psycho. He just thought it was crazy.

Speaker A: I haven't caught up, like kept up with what he's doing now, but his— yeah, his whole like comparison of different cultures and the iconography that they use and like why, you know, I think the issue with him is that he's asking questions that are kind of hard to answer. And so they're very open-ended.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: And he's picking a particular interpretation of it.

Speaker B: He's a little fantastical, but I appreciate the—

Speaker A: Yeah. And he's doing a character and he's, this is also his living, right? And so he does a good job making it interesting and he speaks well. And I'm like, there's a non-zero chance that he's right. And I wouldn't be like so vociferously saying that he's wrong, like some other people are.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Cool. Graham Hancock.

Speaker B: Don't spoil the party, man. Come on. We're just having a good time over here.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Yeah. I read Hero with a Thousand Faces. My friend sent me that book. He gets a little bit more rigorous into like the similarities, the, the hero story. Like that's a constant throughout all the cultures. He even like made this case for cannibalism, which I thought was really interesting.

Speaker A: Okay. I don't know that one.

Speaker B: Child, child cannibalism.

Speaker A: Whoa.

Speaker B: He kind of explained what it was and why they did it. And I remember reading that being like, oh, that actually kind of makes sense. So that kind of, that surprised me. That'll be a good soundbite, right?

Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Take that outta context.

Speaker B: Jammasterlee supports child cannibalism.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Can't wait for that headline. If anyone cares enough, but.

Speaker A: Well, yeah, big recommendation on that. Again, I just find it super entertaining and I think it's fun to like listen to that and go like, yeah, that is an interesting— it's awesome to hear someone come up with those ideas too. Dude, it's great. Understand what people are capable of. So do you have anything you wanna plug? Like obviously your TikTok is @jammasterlee, we'll link to below and your Twitter so people can catch up on your content before the movie comes out, however you plan on releasing it. But like, do you have a, an estimate of like when you might actually finish this project? Fuck.

Speaker B: I mean, so the 4th round of edits is definitely the most challenging cuz it's really trying to actually compose it. I don't even know, maybe in a year, uh, something like that. Right on.

Speaker A: Are you open to people reaching out if they wanna like maybe help or, or take a watch or give you feedback? A lot of New York City people who listen to this, so.

Speaker B: Fuck yeah. Hit me up, man. Hit me up 24/7. I'm super down. God, I could use all the help I could get. I don't know how much I can pay you, but it'll be a passion project. Um, so no, that's great. That's—

Speaker A: If anyone's listening who, if you find, if you think The idea of taking a bunch of TikToks and at least you've already pre-curated them. So that's good, right? You've done a lot of the heavy lifting.

Speaker B: A lot of the sifting is done. So you're looking at the meat and potatoes, at least.

Speaker A: Well, I think, Steven, I want to say thank you so much for coming on because I think it took like a lot of trust from you to have this random guy hit your DMs and be like, you don't know me.

Speaker B: That was the hardest part, actually. The rest was smooth sailing from there.

Speaker A: But I get it because in crypto, right, you're so like, used to people scamming.

Speaker B: So much shadiness, like so much.

Speaker A: Yeah. So I appreciate you having trust. And obviously, you know, we talked a few months ago and I kind of explained to you what I'm about and the show's about.

Speaker B: And yeah, you've been great.

Speaker A: It's also such a, you know, it's a big, it's a big thing to talk about, like this chunk of your life. And this is something that we've talked a lot about a lot on the show of like, I think I told you when we first met that a lot of artists and stuff have gotten into this crypto game with NFTs and like they make this money and then they Dude, totally. Somehow end up with nothing and they're like, what happened?

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: And so I think it's a relatable story. And I'm sure a lot of collectors as well have had big swings, right? Because they're in the crypto space and—

Speaker B: Yep. You get that euphoria and yeah, it's just a, it's a crazy tidal wave. Yeah.

Speaker A: So I think definitely go check out Steven's content. It's Jammasterlee. Again, links are going to be below. And then for sure, when your project gets out there, Let us know. We'll post it on Twitter and stuff and try to share it around because I think anyone in the crypto art space is gonna find this really interesting for a variety of reasons. So yeah, thanks, man. Thanks so much for taking the time to come on.

Speaker B: Dude, you'll be the first to know. And thanks for not being a rug pull. But no, you've been great, man. This has been really enjoyable.

Speaker A: Yeah, well, let's just keep it at this and I hope everyone who's listening enjoyed. We'll be back again soon with hopefully in a couple weeks or so another Waiting to Be Signed episode, you know.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And that's it. Cool. Thanks again, Steve.

Speaker B: All right, man.

Speaker A: Bye.

Speaker B: Bye. We're waiting, always. We're waiting to be signed.