Speaker A: All right, hello and welcome everyone to another episode of Waiting to Be Signed, a special interview episode. We're joined today By Iskra Velitchkova. And of course Trinity is here as well. We're super excited to have Iskra on the show. Another fx hash legend in the waiting to be signed books here. How's it going everyone?

Speaker B: All good here.

Speaker C: Hi. Hello. It's so cool to have you here. I remember when we were first starting this, I mean, I guess like 2 years ago, but we were getting our first interviews and it's who, who are on our like list of stretch goals for artists to talk to or just people to talk to. And you're like, maybe someday we can get Iskra on, but probably not. She's just too big of a big deal. It was very scary, but now you're here.

Speaker B: Super happy to be here.

Speaker A: Well, thanks for coming on. We're super excited to talk to you. And of course, the first question that we always ask everyone is just to get your background in art and coding. So if you wanna just catch everyone up on who you are and also how did you come to the blockchain is a good, uh, After that, we're always curious to know how artists end up deciding to release their work as NFTs in the first place.

Speaker B: Well, my name is Iskra Velichkova. I'm an artist. Now we have this discussion the last days on Twitter if we are generative or however we need to you know define us. So I guess I'm an artist and I basically work with technology, and now mostly focusing my work on generative art. But Yeah, it's quite open for me. So my background is I studied economics. I wanted to be an architect, but then I just started studying journalism because I don't know why, because I wanted to change it for design and graphic design. But at that time in Spain, everything was private and I really wanted to go to a public one. So it was hard for me to go in this direction. And after a few gap years and A bit of mess in my 18s. I just decided to go through economics, which basically I had this kind of question about, would I go into more creative things in my life or more into more social and basically understanding the world around? I was very interested in international economics. So there were like those 2 things and I just decided to go Into international economics, which was fine. But at some point, I was like, "This is not really my stuff." I'm dealing with a lot of data, a lot of things. And at some point, I was lucky because I met a professor in the university, and he kind of saw in me this kind of interest for the design, the graphic design. I was good at maths, so he introduced me to the data visualization, which at that time. It was starting to have a hype here in Spain, but actually very, very few people were doing that thing. So I was like, sure. I don't know what is this and I don't know how to code. I don't know what is HTML. I don't know anything. So he started teaching me to code and everything during the university. And then we created a company together, a studio, once I finished. Well, it was before I finished the university and we started working with The media here in Spain, a few political organizations and so on. So basically I just started learning by doing because I was running a company, I was coding, he was more into the math thing, but you know, so it was for a few years this kind of learning by doing, you know, and it was very, very interesting. And then for personal reasons, we had to close the studio. And I went to work at a huge bank here in Spain, BBVA, the center of excellence, let's say, of the, of the bank. We were about 20 people, mostly scientists and me, you know, and basically it was very, very nice because I had the chance to work with super incredible professionals from who I learned a lot about the algorithms, about the techniques that we do behind, you know, the scenes and everything. And I just realized how interesting were the algorithms instead of the data itself, because I was very constrained about this should be like that, you know, the data is like that. So you have to represent it this way. But I was like, but this is ugly, you know, but reality was ugly. And at some point I had like one of my biggest projects in my life. I finished that project. It was very huge. I worked on that project for a year and a half at the bank. And then I just realized that I had so many questions in my head about What can we do with these new techniques? How can we understand the algorithms in the way that we relate to each other in this new world? You know, so there were quite philosophical questions that emerged and I was, you know, I need to be free to really go after these questions and I can't do that in a company. So I quit my job in 2018, '19, something like that. And I decided to go into the generative space like completely free. I was good at my work. I knew I could do something great, or at least try, but I had no name. I had anything in the art world. The NFTs, I didn't know anything about the NFTs, but I was just, you know, jump into this. And actually, I quit my job the same day that Marcelo because we were together. So we did this huge movement together and we decided to spend a year on just buying all kinds of weird stuff at home, you know, a pottery wheel, A plotter, paintings, you know, everything that could be creative. We just bought it, and we started playing with that thing for a year without any kind of vision of selling anything, just creating a body of work. I believe it was kind of brave, you know, leaving both of us work and everything. You have some kind of gifts, and after that year, I learned about the NFTs. I learned about you know Hiketnung at that time, and. We said, you know, we can just try. And that's the story.

Speaker C: That's a beautiful story. And I'm so jealous of your 2018. I hope that you look back on that with the fondest of memories.

Speaker B: It was an interesting year.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: And then, you know, the COVID and the lockdown and everything, it was hard, but at the same time, I think it helped to say, you know, we stopped and I felt kind of guilty. You just quit your job, you know, and it was quite a good job. And I quit my job actually with like €5, you know, in the account. And I asked for a loan, which I paid with the first fx hash drop actually. So it was good, but we just felt like the whole world sadly stopped as well. So we're okay, we are all locked, you know, so it's time to think on our art.

Speaker C: You both have a background in data visualization, right? Or am I getting that wrong?

Speaker B: Uh, not really. I have this background. He's an engineer, but he was more dealing with management at the time. Also, you know, in these innovation areas and so on. So, yeah.

Speaker C: You know, you specifically asked for this to be more of a casual slash cultural interview, which, you know, we are hard-hitting journalists. We ask all of the toughest questions. But I think that there's something to be said about having more of the cultural types of conversations or more personal conversations, you know, specifically like where we are from like an NFT market perspective, especially 'cause I feel like we're like a sub-sub-subculture within like the art and crypto space. It ties into an interesting conversation that we're having in Tender right now about like during these times, like what should we do? How do we maintain community? How do we maintain connection? Why is it important to you? to have like these cultural conversations or just more personal conversations?

Speaker B: Well, actually, you were kind enough to ask me how I wanted to be in this conversation, and I never say anything. I don't want to interfere in the way that people can run the conversation. But it was, I think, yesterday or 2, 3 days ago, I saw a thread. I don't know if it was on Twitter or I don't know where was that. You just wrote to someone that you were gonna interview me, and I think it was Flo. And he said, yeah, you can ask her more personal questions about movies or books, which maybe this is not, you know, the most interesting question. But I really felt it was really nice to have this kind of point of view of who we are, you know, and how this affects, you know, because I feel sometimes with my work. I want to say a lot of things and I try to express a few ideas on Twitter. And sometimes I feel it's not enough, a tweet, you know, because you share an image or a project. And usually I really want to bring a lot of narrative in every project that I do. And I think it's not enough, you know, the places that we have to share. So it's not about running like a very, very personal conversation, which is not the point, but maybe just, you know, connecting personal things with, um, or, you know, perspectives with the work, that would be interesting. But that was just a suggestion. So.

Speaker A: Well, it's a suggestion that we took to heart. And to follow that up then, on books, movies, media in general, is there anything that you would consider required or recommended reading or watching to better understand your work? I mean, you've obviously referenced movies in some of your work. The Zabriskie point most recently, right? But what, what would be like the course prospectus of stuff that people should all read or watch to get familiar with you?

Speaker B: Okay. So yeah, you have tough questions, but I think nothing actually, because I usually, I like to see, to watch more biographical movies, things from which I can learn from how people in the past did things. More than the story itself. So sometimes I get inspired by movies like The Solaris from Tarkovsky, or books in this case, or Fellini for this new Bright Moments thing, or Zabriskie Point for FX Hash. But it's not because you know the story; it's something that I really want to put in the project. But Zabriskie Point was you know this final scene where you can see this explosion with. Pink Floyd, you know, at the end, and it was very impressive for me. So I really wanted to take this scene and do a homage, but the movie has nothing to do actually with, with the project. So it's not about connecting really movies or books to my projects, but what I take from the books, for example, is when I need to find a proper time to start a project or get inspiration, I usually—

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: go to whichever biography from whoever. I mean, how did you do that? Usually they, you know, they would take a house for a month, whatever, to take time, you know, to take their work seriously. So I need this kind of energy to see that people really take their work seriously so I can do the same. So yeah, this is how I use those references for the work.

Speaker C: It's kind of like, um, I spend a lot of time watching TikTok over my wife's shoulder of like all of the things that people do to find helpful. I love that you're kind of doing a similar thing, but just in like a very long-form format. But also it's proven out based off of the geniuses. You know, I remember reading Walden in high school where it's just somebody sitting on the shores of Walden and just having a very basic life for a year and just being very intentional about it.

Speaker A: Mm-hmm.

Speaker C: What's the most fun or most helpful thing that you've done that you've taken from like some of these inspirations to help reinvigorate your art, other than taking a year in 2018 to paint and plot and throw some clay around?

Speaker B: Well, actually, I do these things very often. I take some time from time to time and I go somewhere alone, usually, sometimes with the family, but Sometimes I need to do that alone for a few days. But I remember it was not that 2018 was, you know, the year for that only. But after that, the first thing that I did was I took 3 months, which I called the pause, and I found 3 places in the world that could give me, you know, this kind of— to break the influence from the corporate company, you know, because that was so strong. So I needed something to break it, and I found that The first month I would spend in Miami with my best friend. So I found, you know, this kind of be away from everything, go to the beach and, you know, forget about everything. Then the second month I went to Berlin to meet people, to get, you know, energized again, to see, you know, very cool people on the streets, which is Berlin all about. And then the final one was going to Iceland, actually, to just have all these things in a small house.

Speaker A: Wow.

Speaker B: Find the meaning of everything and go back home, but I didn't make it for Iceland. I just started feeling so alone in Berlin after 2 months away, so I got back. But I'm from Bulgaria originally, so from time to time I take a few days and I just go there, not calling anyone, just going in a hotel, but just walking on the streets because those are my streets actually. So I find inspiration there. With Marcelo, we travel a lot. We always try to find a place where we can have rest, but also get inspired. We do this very often. Awesome.

Speaker A: I mean, that's one of the nice things about being in Europe is like you can take all these short trips to places and see so much. And I guess we have that here in the States, but I don't know people who really explore the States in the way that people explore Europe.

Speaker C: You're on your short trip to New Jersey right now.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: Testing it out, feeling it out. Yeah.

Speaker A: It's interesting to hear you say that because also like it does seem like cities, places, a lot of what we've seen from your work or things that I kind of like think of when I think of your work is that influence of like urban landscapes or just, you know, like Escape or like Edna, right? Like they imply places that are in transition. I guess I'm just fumbling around trying to say that a lot of your work does have like a sense of place. to it, and it seems like that is a really important theme in like what you're trying to explore. So I don't know, maybe you could speak a little bit more about like how that translates into some of your projects and like even the first one that we know you from, like Uninhabitable, right? Which by the way, Trinity has a red Uninhabitable. I don't know if you know that.

Speaker C: I do. I'm really looking for Nowhere cuz that's the one that just speaks to my soul the most. But you know, we can talk about Uninhabitable later. I wanna make sure that you answer Will's question, but I, I could geek out about it for a very long It was so good.

Speaker B: Yeah, I guess there is something. I think it was Icon, uh, the collector. He's very, very good friend, but he wrote me and he said something that I've been thinking a lot about this after, you know, I read the message. And he was, you know what, I hope you're fine because I just feel that you're escaping from something because usually you always, you know, you bring this kind of literally escape, you know, it's a project, but you know, this kind of running away from something, you know, Looking for something all the time, I realized that that was truth. It's not a bad thing for me. I'm not escaping from any bad life or any bad situation at all. But there is something about being very conscious in my case that you know we have a lot of things that we can do, we can explore, we can feel, you know, and we have not so much time. And that's something that I really have it inside. So I think a lot of my explorations are about you know finding. This place where you can really be you and have some strong connection to the place. You know, as you said, here in Europe, it's very easy. If you can just go 5 hours by car from here and you'll be in a different country, Portugal or France, and then a bit more, you'll be in Italy, you know, and everything changes a lot. And I really connect places to moments and to people and to the ground, actually. So yeah, there is something about this kind of nostalgia or something about, you know, being in a place where something happened, you know, or in a place that you can imagine something happening. And we'll go after that through Uninhabitable. But I think Uninhabitable, it's probably the best example for that. You know, all the places there are places that they're not pleasant actually, but they have something, you know, for me. Yeah. And then I have, you know, these projects behind the curtains where they're one of ones, but I have the system and from time to time I try to find something behind the curtain and then I release it. But always you have these kind of places that you can really see clearly because of the curtains, but there is something happening. Sometimes there is fire, sometimes there is an ocean, you know, problematic places, let's say. That you can maybe find something in there.

Speaker C: We've talked about how you came into NFTs, how you discovered like Hic Et Nunc and Tezos and everything. And a lot of the work that you released there was definitely within the realm of one of WOM's editioned projects. Like, how did you find your way to like the desire to release like this traditional long-form generative art and like through fx hash and You know, what is the kind of like the space that it opens up, especially for something like Uninhabitable, where you can get this, like this range of emotion all within like a single series?

Speaker B: I clearly prefer one-of-ones. Yeah, clearly. I was so lucky. I don't know if you were in the very beginning of Hic Et Nunc, if you were active or not. I know we look like very, you know, these old people talking about, you know, glory days, but they were, you know. So there is something about this place that I think for the good it just disappeared, you know, just protecting that moment in time, you know, and avoiding, you know, to destroy it, to get destroyed by itself. So I think it was a very nice time because we, as I said, that was the first place where I started releasing because I saw people that I really admired at that time, and now too, but I saw Mario Klingemann, I saw Helena Sarin. Okay, here something is happening. And those big names, they were releasing for nothing, and it felt like this is freedom. I mean, you can just show whatever you want. You're not thinking about the money, you're not thinking about the prices. On the other side, on Ethereum, Everything was about price, which is fine. I don't have any problem with that, but I just felt I was not ready to get there. You know, and we had this kind of battle between you know the environment you know behind at that time you have to choose a side you know and and for me was I'm not taking any war here so I'm I'm just gonna stay here and have fun and it was about I remember I would release something every day or. A few things per day, you know, because I would just find something, oh, this is super nice, I'm just gonna put it, for which price, I don't care. I would actually put it at a high price because I didn't care, you know, it was like, just let's try something, and it was super fun. I think my best work was there. Still, my best work is there because, you know, it was about really working face to face to a piece. And really, you know, looking at thousands of outputs and then going for this one because there is something there and you really wanted to share this thing with a story, with a title and everything. So it was very, very, yeah, it was free. So I really enjoyed that time and I really enjoyed, you know, some of the collections were for me funny. I would just, you know, make fun with the namings and Be me. They have a lot of me in everything at that time, way more than now, because I think now we have a different pressure. But then you know Hic et Nunc just went down. It was nice, and then I think it was the same week or the week later FX hash came up, and I was okay. Now is there is the family back, you know? And then I saw many people trying to get there and and and. Publishing projects and I really liked them, but I never did any long form before. And I was a bit, you know, I'm not sure if this is the thing that I want to do. But at the same time, I felt the personal pressure of I need to be part of this family, you know, so I really need to do that. And in Habitable, I think it was, even if it was a long form, it felt really fresh as well because I didn't think a lot about the project. I just saw, you know, this thing and I was like, wow. I think everything came with the forest ones with the ellipses. I like the idea that, you know, the background was this kind of yellow tone, which I really like to use to explore things. So I was— I really want to give this sense of sketches, like something pure, no grain, no nothing, just put this and black line. So I had this one, then I started playing with the lines and I got the nowhere. And then once I had everything, but that was like a few days, you know, it was a very, very quick project. And then I was like, okay, now you need something powerful here. There is something you need to add some drama, you know? So I started playing with this red as a fog. And for me it was, this is exactly what I want to do. So yeah, I just released it and it felt like really great being part of this thing. And I mean, I love Uninhabitable.

Speaker C: And I think like your most iconic work is really in that, like that one-of-one space. I just went to OBJKT, which is, I guess, the best way to have for HEN now. And just sorting from oldest to most recent on your, like, just seeing like all the different explorations that you talk about and just seeing how like They're released kind of in a series of sorts. It's quite wonderful. And, you know, when it comes to that relation of what was life like back in this space in 2021, it's not that long ago, but it feels like forever ago. You know, even fx hash, even though it was a little bit later, it still kind of had this joy, this discovery, this freedom. And I do find that people are trying to recreate that in some other spaces, but I don't know if it's possible. Because to do that in an intentional way versus just the freedom and just kind of the emergence of communities as they happen. Like, I guess I'm making a comparison to like the other generative art platforms that are coming out. Farcaster, to a certain extent, I think maybe specifically Farcaster. Will we ever get it back or does it just have to emerge naturally?

Speaker B: I don't think it's going to happen again the same way. I've been working for a long time in, you know, behind this data visualization thing. I've been working on teams developing digital products, you know, and services and things. And you learn something there, which is you need a lot of factors to get together to be successful with something. I remember when we were using, you know, Facebook or whichever, you know, platform, you would chat with your friends with the DMs, you know, but then It came WhatsApp, or at least in Europe we we use a lot of WhatsApp, and I was like, "Bah, why? I mean, I have my DMs." And then you realize that that service was successful because you know it was only for chatting. You know you didn't have anything else to do there, so it was easy, and we really needed something just properly done for this. So I think sometimes you have a situation where everything just comes together in a way. Hic et nunc was nothing special. I mean, the website was terrible and everything behind was a bit weird. And but somehow we just gathered together and that's all, you know. FXHash had for me this kind of charm of Cypher, you know, building something incredible by himself, you know, and then, you know, with the team. But it's incredible and it could have gone wrong, of course, but There was something about the community holding everything at that time. And now we are seeing a lot of platforms which are perfect and they have the perfect UX and everything, but we can't be the best community everywhere. So I think it's not going to happen again, which is not bad. I'm just wondering what's the next thing. I feel there is something that smells a bit of we're done and we need something. Which is fine because I feel it's very difficult for everybody to think about the next thing. It's impossible actually until you see it. But in the same way that a few years ago Art Blocks decided, you know, to release something, to create editions, to create the long form, and everything changed from then. Now we are just about to see whatever is coming next, you know? So I think it's okay that we're never gonna go back, you know, to this. That, that was— had its time, you know? So.

Speaker A: But even so, I mean, artists now like yourself have to live in the environment that we're in and survive, right? Or even thrive. So how do you think about the present moment when it comes to platforms, when it comes to chains? I mean, one of the things that we've talked about a lot on the show Is that FXHash got so many artists started in their long-form journey and helped them cross over into ETH. You're actually one of the few who came back, right, with Edno. You, and not just on ETH, like you put it out on Tezos even. So how do you kind of think about your work, where it's gonna go? Do you even consider optimizing for success and saying like, if I had put that one on ETH, it could have done more money, or I could have maybe gotten it into— Verse or Art Blocks? Like, how do you think about releasing in this, this time that we're in?

Speaker C: Follow-up, how do you define success? I feel like that's also just a very broad range term.

Speaker B: It's hard. And I think, um, I'm a bit lost, as many of us are, for the last year and a half or 2, which is not bad, but, but yeah, it's a bit hard. I think regarding the chain, as I mentioned in the beginning, we had, you know, in the very beginning this kind of, you need to choose a side, right? So I regret that thing because I think I really put so much emotion on the community, and I really think we should have been more open to say, you know, we can really do whatever. I mean, We can go whatever, but at that time it was hard to be in the hicket nook thing and then drop something on it. Everyone would be like, "What the fuck are you doing?" You know, and so it was a bit you know weird. And then at some point I just realized, you know what? Stop. Go back to your adult life and just realize that you can do whatever you want. But I really felt that I was really really connected to that Tezos culture, which I'm part of that community, of course. But I felt a bit, you know, sad because I was— I would like, you know, to be in different platforms in a more agnostic way, you know, but I just felt I was more connected to that thing and the market perceived me in this way, you know, you're from Tezos, you know, which I mean, it's fine, but for me it was a bit confusing, you know, what you should do now, you know, where you should do now things. And then I think, you know, the market crashed and everything was very weird. And I've always been looking for— to keep my role as an artist and as an independent artist. So, I never had any agent or anyone. I mean, I've worked with galleries and I have some more close galleries, you know, working with me, but they're not representing me. So, at some point when we got so crazy with the numbers and, you know, ETH now is down, now is up, Tezos is done, you know, so what is your price? And that was very confusing because it was like, okay, now my work, it's super worth in ETH, but it's like nothing in Tezos, but my work is the same. So how can you price yourself? And actually, I just realized that I was having like great shows behind me, but my price was going down because the market was down. So that was not good. There was a problem there. I mean, You should just evolve in your career, you know, having more presence, a better price and everything. But then your price is connected to a crypto. It was very weird, you know? So I kind of stopped releasing basically because I was, you know what, I don't know what to do here. So I started working more with galleries more than platforms. Like you want to do a show, do it wherever you want. And then we can price it even in euros or dollars. I mean, I don't care about this. And I really started focusing more into, you know, do a good job and don't worry about— and I'm very honest with saying that I stopped worrying about money. And I really think regarding your question about, you know, following value or success in work and in life, in my case, Whenever I started following money or success or whatever, it never works. It needs to come from something truth, which is a hard decision quitting a job, or a hard decision of just stop releasing, or a hard decision of I'm gonna skip, you know, this very huge auction thing, you know, because it's not gonna help me now. I don't want to do this. I really want to do a very long-term project and then find a way to release it, you know? So there are a few hard questions and hard situations that you need to face in order to really find a way, you know? So in my case, my decisions were basically stop because I didn't know how to price my work. Last year was a bit difficult for me. I was struggling a lot with that. And then this year, I don't know why, I just kind of woke up, you know, and I was like, you know what, just do your work, price it in something that could seem properly. Don't, you know, seek for a lot because, you know, you're— I'm not in a rush. I mean, this is a long life project, so I'm focusing more on really doing a great job and waiting for the best opportunity, you know.

Speaker C: We've talked about this a little bit. recently as well. It's the intrinsic versus extrinsic reward of doing something because it feeds your soul versus something that feeds your bank account. And, you know, I think that what we're learning is that one leads to the other. And if it doesn't lead to like financial compensation, then you kind of have to be okay with that. I don't know if we've gotten like that much of a response from like the artist community saying that that's what they, that's what matters, or that's the approach that they've taken. So I appreciate you being really honest and upfront about that. You're also saying that, you know, you're working with other forms of distribution or releases. Are you working with people on things that are not NFTs, like more within the traditional space?

Speaker B: Well, we did this exhibition in Paris in November, it was, I think, with Kate Vass Gallery, and none of them were NFTs because we really wanted to do a generative show with no NFTs. I would like to work in more things that they're not NFTs. But I didn't find the opportunity. I really believe there is a need to find a bridge between what we do and the contemporary art scene, which we are part of, even though they don't know that yet, but we are part of that. So I really believe there are a few projects that we can really explore in terms of basically, I don't have absolutely anything against the NFTs. I think they're a perfect tool for the current times that we're living in. But what I'm against is when you use these things, these tools, the NFTs, the blockchain, in a way that is not completely honest. So if I want to do something that I don't need the blockchain because I'm doing something with my hands or whatever, I mean, I know the market will be harder, but is the market for this thing? So if I do a long form, of course I'm going to the NFTs. If I do a one-of-one digital, I need the blockchain, you know, but it's not that everything has to be an NFT or that I don't like them or that I love them. It's in any case, you need to study, I think, what is the thing that you need, you know, just to release your work. So yeah, I really would like to explore different things and And at some point, not only generative work, which by the way, I really would like to say that there is something that I think we've been discussing recently as well on Twitter. I mean, I love generative art, but when everything started to be so dogmatic, you know, you need to do this in this way. Is this fully coded or not? Then you start designing apps. Basically, you know, it needs to be responsive. It needs to be this way. It needs to have this consistency, you know, which is fine. But I think we are losing somehow this kind of, I don't know, I just felt I need to do this today. It's not fully coded, you know, but so it's not a good thing or I'm not anymore a generative artist. So I think there is a need really to just refresh ourselves and use everything when you need it. Not because this is the rule, you know, or the generative religion or whatever.

Speaker C: Yeah, there's definitely a generative religion out there. And it is funny how like so much of the dogmatism is coming from, I think, the collector base more than anything, which is also doubly interesting because I feel like the collector base is still getting so up to speed into generative art. Most, like, not, not neither of us are coders in any real sense of the word. I mean, Will did put together a project or two. And they're fantastic projects. I don't mean to shit on anyone.

Speaker B: Well, but I understand, I understand that thing. I think it's normal that it comes from the collector base because they're the ones supporting. It is how it is. I mean, they're collecting our works, they're putting the price, they're supporting us. And I think that's something that probably has happened during the whole history of art. But the thing is that now we see everything in real time, everywhere in the Discords, in the Twitter things. 50 years ago, it was a conversation, you know, in a club with a beer, and you wouldn't know anything, you know, and you would feel that you were more free because you don't have any interpolation, you know. Interpolation, is this a word?

Speaker C: Sure. For sure.

Speaker B: But yeah, whatever. Now you just, you see everything all the time, and it's good and bad.

Speaker A: It comes from the collectors mostly being people who have never collected art prior to NFTs and generative art. And so they establish a very simple like checklist of like, oh, is it code-based? Okay, check. So now that it's starting to approach something that I can collect and understand. And then when you veer into other aspects of the discipline or trying to hybridize it a little bit by including pre-rendered images or doing something different, then I think all of a sudden that evaluation process breaks down for a lot of collectors.

Speaker C: Mm-hmm.

Speaker A: And they just go like, well, it's not for me because Here's what I've collected. Here's what I feel like I'm comfortable understanding how to value. And so I can go like, yes, I wanna buy that, or no, I don't. And it's all just symptomatic of like, we haven't grown the space. If any, if anything, the space has just gotten smaller. And so it's just more, it's just us freaks here who are just like, only want the code-based stuff. Or now probably AI is the dominant thing that people seem to want.

Speaker C: But yeah. And I think that also kind of to piggyback on that. A lot of the people in this space collecting are probably more of like that min-maxer, what's like the most correct thing, like very like math brain oriented. And so having a framework is super helpful. As Will said, like they don't really have that art background. And it's just interesting to think about that in also correlation with how we're seeing more of that shift to Gen AI, which does allow people to be a lot more concept-based.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: Rather than just how efficient is this coder?

Speaker B: Mm-hmm.

Speaker C: You know, like what is the thought and the joy behind something? I don't have any follow-up there, but it's just an interesting observation.

Speaker A: Well, I know, Iskra, you describe yourself as just being an artist who works with technology. And on your site, you know, one of the statements you have is that you view technology as something that can help us understand ourselves. So I wanted to ask you, what have you learned about yourself? Through working with technology? And is there anything in particular that maybe you hope that others learn by viewing your work and interacting with it?

Speaker B: It's time for this question. Um, this is a very hard one, but, uh, yeah, basically it's the core of everything. So when I say that thing, a lot of people of course answer, you know, like, no, come on, you're this kind of people, you know, that really like technology, but we are losing our human touch, you know, in life and so on. And I completely agree with that thing. But I think what I'm trying to say, it's a bit more broader or deeper, which is, and I'm going to try to be very short, okay? But I mean, it's not easy. That project that I mentioned in the beginning, that it was kind of big for me. And after that project, I quit my job. I was asked to represent visually a recommendation system. That was 2016. And, you know, this kind of hype with Spotify recommending you stuff or apps for restaurants or dating or whatever. So you basically had like a very few number of algorithms based on popularity or similar to your preferences, restaurant, you know, this kind of very, very simple ones. And then you could have deep learning techniques, which were black boxes, you know, and you didn't know exactly how they worked. So I was like, okay, I really need some time to understand how to represent visually that thing, you know? So I asked my team, okay, can you just give me a few weeks? And I'm going to go by my motorbike along the whole city with a GoPro filming every street in the city in Madrid. Literally every street, and they were like, sure, do whatever you want. So I took this project, and I took my motorbike, and I was like a month away running the motorbike, trying to find how my life would change in order to find a restaurant with my phone or with my motorbike. You know, street by street, restaurant by restaurant, instead of just clicking. You know, I want the best restaurant. It's a second. So. I just realized that, you know, time had changed with these new technologies. I mean, now what it would take me 2 months to find, I can find it in 1 second. And that's not a small question. So I was like, what's happening here? And also the distance between me and the things around has changed because something would take me, I don't know, it was 300 kilometers or something, what I did with the motorbike instead of being in my place, you know, but the restaurant somehow became closer to me because it would take just 2 minutes to go. Right. This is a bit philosophical, but everything started with this idea for me. And I said, okay, so if we are able to map all the restaurants, all the people around that they are similar to me in a very, very huge, huge sphere. Okay. So how close I am to you guys, it depends on what do you like in life? Who are you? What's your background? Many, many things.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker B: And then which is the closest song to me? Based on what, you know? So we are not there, but at some point I'm sure we'll be able to map everything around. And which is the most beautiful thing is that you can just find yourself in this huge amount of things and then understand who you are. So once I started with this, you know, image, I quit the job and I said, okay, I need to work on that thing. And I started working on my stuff and I started iterating with this, the Book of Nature. You know, this book that we all started coding with that one, and you have a lot of algorithms from physics. And I started playing with the tree, a very perfect tree, you know, but it's kind of boring, you know, spend a week to draw a tree because I mean, yeah, fine. But then I started breaking it, you know, and turning it into, you know, adding millions of lines. And then the bird came up, you know, and I thought, this is a little bird. And I was, wait, this is very interesting. I mean, it came up without designing it, but it's a bird, an illusion of a bird, right? But—

Speaker C: It was emergent.

Speaker B: Yeah. For me, it was very interesting to see, okay, so if you find something on the emergence of the code that you are not designing that thing, but you see something on the iterations, then you can just follow maybe the code in a reverse way. And you can understand poetically how a bird is made. Basically, to design a bird in nature, God or whoever designed this used, you know, this amount of lines, these rotations, these things. So I know the birds are not done this way, but I can, you know, start an approximation to this. And I just found that this is a distance, basically.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: How many lines of code are from me to a bird? You know, so I just really got back to this idea of finding distances between things, and I started playing with this emergence of things. And I have a lot of works that they are a leaf or whatever, which I never meant to design that thing. So I'm playing with systems, breaking them for a long time, for months, until I see something, and then I start working on that thing. So the bird was not that Perfect. I found something similar, and then I started working on polishing this bird or this leaf or this whatever. So I really believe that there is something about the possibility of the generative techniques to explain how things are made. And at the end, if we understand how birds are made or trees are made or the clouds or the sea or We're gonna go closer to us, how we are made. And we are made basically of blood and skin and bones. But there is something about here, our mind, which we still don't understand, right? So if we are able to map everything, how my movements work, you know, how I walk, how I drink, why I'm ill now, you know, everything, there will be at some point something that it's almost 100%, but it's not 100%. And this very little percentage probably would be our essence. So this is why I think machines can make us more human, which is way far from, you know, yeah, but the machines now are doing everything. Yeah, I know. But there is something that maybe we are still, you know, in the doors of.

Speaker A: Do you believe in free will? Like, is that little bit Is that like the free will of people that can't be described, or are you a full-on determinist? Because what you're talking about kind of sounds like a determinist philosophy almost.

Speaker B: I mean, first of all, I think we are of course here to understand what's around. I think that this is— I mean, everyone should agree that we are here to understand, you know. We invented, you know, the plane so we can travel, we can see the things. So basically we just discovered, or we think All the physical stuff, right? But now there are things that we are trying to discover, which are these new distances. You know how we think, how we process the ChatGPT. I mean, it's not a monster. Basically, it just gives you information so you can just decide what you can do with that. So I think there is something that of course makes us different, and we are not able to understand what it is. You can tell. You can say will or soul. I don't know any of the terms because I'm not into this literature, but there is something that makes us different, that makes us feel, you know. And I think that's the reason why I really believe this whole movement, it's something else. Because in the previous art practices, you designed the work. So you wanted to paint a landscape, you wanted to paint a portrait, you wanted to paint And even if you didn't want to paint that because it was abstract or whatever, your intention was there and this was the work. Now we are saying, I want something like that, but then just create something open to randomness, you know, and then you obtain things. So there is a difference there. And in this openness to leave will in the process, I think we're going to get very surprised. And we're gonna see things there. But I'm gonna stop to be so philosophical, but you asked me the question. Yeah.

Speaker C: I'm like, are we still talking about long-form generative art? Are we talking about the nature of humanity? Are we just somebody's like Art Blocks project as a society? I don't know.

Speaker B: Who knows? Who knows? I don't know anything about this, but those are the questions basically that I like.

Speaker A: I think people will enjoy that. So, don't worry about getting too philosophical.

Speaker B: Great.

Speaker A: Trinity, where do you wanna go from here? I know we're already at an hour. We can go a little bit longer, of course.

Speaker C: This is something that, you know, you're talking about data visualization and, you know, just like the ways of representing all of the depth and breadth of what is available within that sphere. And, you know, at the start of this conversation, you know, you ultimately quit that job partially because you wanted to explore like more of the artistic side of things. And also because, as you said, As somebody who works within the digital product space, I know that when it comes to visual representation, there's a lot of limitations as to what people think is acceptable.

Speaker B: Mm-hmm.

Speaker C: Have you ever thought about going back to working with some of those older datasets, if they're still available, or just even other datasets to find ways that you wish that you could reinterpret, like specific pieces of data? I, I don't know if you've looked at like what Ada, Ada, Ada has done, you know, a long time ago on fx hash at this point. But just in terms of like GDP of different countries and like how people are represented within the UN, like from a gender, like disparity ratio versus where they are within the world. Have you thought to go back and explore some of those roots more?

Speaker B: Yeah, definitely. Because it was, um, I really enjoyed that work. I've been thinking a lot about doing a project starting by a dataset and doing a data visualization because it's a very different process. I ended up hating that process, but now I would like to go back for a while because before it was like, yeah, just take these numbers. And it was very interesting for me to say, okay, now you need to find the disposition of everything. You know, the X, the Y axis would define something, then the length of the line, then the color, then the position, then the, you know, how bold the lines are or not would represent something. So that was very, very interesting. But then at some point, as I said before, it got ugly at the end because, you know, the data was not beautiful and I would try to represent a forest and flowers and things and it'd be like ugly flowers, you know? So that's why I said, you know what, I don't care about data anymore. I just want to make beautiful flowers. But now when I came to this space and there are many people from the data visualization background, actually, Zach Lieberman and I have been following him for years in conferences because he would talk about these topics and he was like the master and Marius and, you know, many, many people there. And I was like always, why no one is doing data visualization? You know, maybe it's hard to find open data anymore. I don't know. But for sure, I've been thinking about at some point I would really like to do a tribute to that background and do something a bit different. But yeah, basically that would work only with synthetic data, I guess, because if you want to do generative stuff with that, if it's a one-on-one would be fine. But then if I want to do generative things, I should add randomness to the data. So I would like to try, but for that you need a long time to really do a proper job. And I used to work for data visualization with a different library. D3.js. So there are a few differences and I, now I got used to p5, so whatever. I would really like to, to at some point do something more designed.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: That'd be super cool. I know that you said we can't really say too much about it, but I think to the extent that we can give people a little bit of alpha and get them excited, even if you only speak broadly, you know, you said that this year you're back, you're releasing work. So what types of things can we look forward to from you? over the rest of 2024 or even beyond? You know, if you can't say any platforms or anything specific, that's fine. But are you gonna be continuing to explore this series that you kind of started with Escape? Like, I think, you know, the description you wrote for Edno kind of implies there's gonna be more coming from this series. Like, are, are we gonna see more physical stuff? Like, obviously you did the prints with Tonic. Those are really awesome. What can you kind of get us excited about that's coming up from you?

Speaker B: Well, in the very short term, there is this project that we shared today. There's going to be an event in Menorca, in an island here in Spain, which is going to be the first time for the collective doing that thing. There are 2 new collectors, but they really pushed so hard to bring good names and do something great in the island. So we're gonna go. I think it's gonna be from the 20th to the 22nd of June, and they're gonna share more details. But that's a very nice thing because We're kind of a group of friends going there. It's going to be Marcelo, Ana Carreras, Ana María Caballero, Klingemann. So many, many good people, Pixel Fool, Gumroad. So that's going to be fun. We're going to combine physical and digital pieces. And so that's going to be nice. And then after that, you know, the summer comes and we're going to spend 2 months on creating, but, you know, away from Twitter, let's say. And then Basically everything that I'm working on this year is for the second half, which I'm very happy because I really had time to work on things on my own. So there's gonna be a release focusing on prints as well. So there's gonna be this physical element linked to the NFT. And so I'm working on that, you know, just to feel like a good quality of everything. And then I'm working with smells, actually, which this is very, very in the exploration phase now, and I'm going to share more in the future. But yeah, basically I'm trying to find correlations between smells, combination of smells, colors, perfumes, plants. And yeah, I'm super happy with that. That's, if everything goes right, that would be one of my most important projects, I think. I'm really taking a lot of time for this one. So probably for the end of the year or next year, I can share something. There are a few things coming, but yeah, I usually share a lot, but I think it's better just to, you know, to share what is very short in time, which is this event in Menorca. But then, yeah, basically very in short, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, because I talk a lot. Yeah, no worries. Basically, I'm taking my time. I'm super happy. I'm doing great things. And yeah, the approach is once the project is ready, I'm going to start pushing that project to be somewhere and not in the other way, working with a strong deadline, which just didn't work for me in the past. And yeah, and regarding these black and white works, I have quite a lot systems, like 10 or 20 systems that I worked on. In the very beginning, but they're not just— I just have them somewhere. And from time to time, I just go there, check, okay, maybe I can evolve this somehow, but it's not ready. So yeah, the black and white thing is gonna be, I think, for me, a thing because I really like this idea of avoiding the color, which I love playing with. But there is something, some honesty for me in the black and white.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Because you, you don't have this help, you know, of the color. So I really play with the very minimal structure of the projects and somehow I learn from that. And then ideally I can do better work with the color in the future.

Speaker A: I gotta follow up on the smells. I saw Trinity's face, especially while you were talking about that. And I think, what's the research process like for an odor or smell-based Like, I imagine it's got to be some kind of installation that you're planning. I think it would be hard to do that digitally, you know? So like, what do you, what do you do? Just kind of walk around the city? Do you go visit like different parks or what's the word? What am I looking for? The word where like arboreums, like, you know what I mean?

Speaker C: Perfumeries.

Speaker A: Perfumeries. Yeah. Like, what do you, what do you do to research all that?

Speaker B: As I usually do, as I said in the beginning, I just equipped my house with everything that I need. To extract smells. So I have a lot of plants, a lot of chemical things that enhance, you know, the smell of things. Then I have this distill, actually, that you put the water, you boil everything, you extract the oil. And so I'm basically now putting everything, reading everything that I know, and extracting super weird smells, which I'm not sure if they're going to work, but it's a fun project. And more than the project, for me, it's interesting how You need to just let the computer away. You're going to just be okay with having a day for you, just opening the door, having this plant, having the other plant, putting the water, waiting, and reading a lot about the process of distilling things, of how perfumes are made in history. I'm reading a lot about this. And yes, I think it just helps me In the same way, when I started my practice, I used to work with pottery in a very easy way. I mean, I'm not a professional at all, but I have a pottery wheel at home and it was very nice for me. I never thought about releasing anything with pottery because I'm not good at it, but it helped me to be at home, you know, with the clay and just break it or not, depending on how you have the mind that day. And now I just feel that, yeah, I'm starting something with a lot of passion. And I have here like 10 books about flowers and then perfumes. And I'm super in this thing, you know, without thinking about the final thing or if it's going to really be a project or not, but just exploring. And it's very interesting.

Speaker C: It's so cool. And just such— I don't want to say it's like— it is kind of a luxury. To like have that time and that space to kind of follow like this deep interest. And I love that for you. And I want to take some of that and bring it to New York.

Speaker B: Of course you need to, you know, put things in the middle and you have this freedom. You have to sometimes work on a project, sell something, you know? But yeah, I think I'm lucky to be able to find, you know, some time for these things. And yeah.

Speaker C: Do you have any tips and tricks that you'd have to enable people to bring this into their own lives? And how do they, how can, how can the average person working a 9 to 5 with a baby and a podcast bring this type of inspiration into their life?

Speaker B: I mean, forget about this if you have a baby, but no, I think that's a very personal thing and I wouldn't never give advice to anyone because I think lives are hard enough for everyone. But I talked with a few people. In the space and out of the space about, you know, this, I would like to be a full-time artist, but, you know, I have the job and I don't want to quit it. And I completely understand that thing. But the only advice that I can give is that just sharing my experience. I mean, I just quit with €5 in the account because that was everything that I had because I, you know, I just didn't have savings and I didn't have family at that time. So I didn't need that. And then you know just you survive somehow, you know. And then you need to have some luck, but luck usually doesn't come without work. So be sure that what you're doing is okay. Sometimes when I used to work at the company, I'm not a company person at all, and I just realized that I I just quit because you know the last weeks I was just crying in the morning. I I couldn't. I mean, I couldn't go and do things from 9 to 5 and then it would be removed, you know, because it was, you know, something that they just told me, do that, but it's not going to happen, you know? So I just felt like I wasn't adding any value in the world, you know? But we feel so good saying, yeah, I'm in the office, you know, I'm working. But I mean, are you or not? Sometimes it's not, you know? So just realize that you can start Stop. You can ask for help. You can ask for money to family or to the bank or whoever, and you can do things. It's not that hard sometimes. But again, this is a disclaimer that I need to say. You know, I would never give any advice to anybody because lives are hard. And if you have a baby, it's fine. It's gonna take some years, but then you can do it. So yeah.

Speaker A: Let's go get loans. Let's go, Trinity. And we'll just become professional Hearthstone players and podcasters again.

Speaker C: Pretty sure that works. That's exactly how that works. I mean, but honestly, but you're right. It's, you know, I think it's so easy to get stuck into the mundanity, or I don't know how to say that word, of life, so to speak. And, you know, sometimes it's about taking a step back. And reclaiming even just a little piece of the day for something that is inspiring and then figuring out how to make that work on a longer-term basis.

Speaker B: In the case that you want to do that, because there are people that, of course, they just, you know, they don't want this. They just, they like this life of 9 to 5, which I think it sounds perfect to me. You know, it just, I'm just not this person, which is hard because it's harder, you know, to find your way. But at the same time, also it's harder to go every day at 9. So I think everything has ups and downs, and it just depends on who you are. And if you really need this, if you really need to get out and be free, and the only thing that I can do is that you can. I mean, it's not an empty word. I think you really can, but it depends on your circumstances. Maybe you can, but not now. Maybe in a few years. I don't know.

Speaker A: Well, I think we should wrap it up. Let's— I'm going to do one rapid fire here. At the end, and then to kind of close out the episode, we ask almost everyone who comes on the show this question: who would you like to hear us interview? And I know you probably don't know the whole history of everyone we've interviewed. You know, I'm sure some of them, but who would get you excited to listen to an episode?

Speaker B: It's always artists or collectors as well.

Speaker A: Yeah, collectors too.

Speaker C: Yes.

Speaker B: Collectors too. Okay.

Speaker C: Anybody.

Speaker B: So, wow, so many names, I think.

Speaker A: Yeah, you can throw them all out there.

Speaker B: I think Pixel Fool. If he's not been here, he's one of the most nice and interesting people that I know from the space. And I think he has a lot of things to say about many, many things. So yeah, maybe Pixel Fool.

Speaker C: Add it to the list.

Speaker A: Cool. Well, I think that's a good place to wrap it up. You've given us so much of your time, Iskra. It's— I hope you had fun.

Speaker B: Yes, so much. I hope you had fun because Sometimes I just talk a lot.

Speaker A: No, that's your job. This is your episode. We're here to listen. We're here to listen and keep you going. And, and, uh, yeah, I think it went off splendidly. So, all right, well, let's end it here then. Everyone, I hope you enjoyed Iskra on the show. Finally, we got her, folks. Thank you so much again for taking the time to come on. We hope you all enjoyed. We'll be back again soon with another episode. So long, bye.

Speaker B: Thank you.