Speaker A: All right, hello and welcome everyone to another episode of Waiting to Be Signed. It's a special interview episode today, just Will on the mic. the waiting to be signed side, but we've got artist CCDDBB, who, if you're a longtime FX Hash collector or an artist from the community, you surely know them. Real name, Claudio Dalla Bernardina. And yeah, Claudio, so happy to have you on. It's been great to kind of get to know you more over the last year or so on the side, chatting about your art, your upcoming project, which we'll get to later. But, you know, as usual, the intro question to you will be, can you let us know your background in art and coding as a way to introduce yourself to the listeners here?

Speaker B: Hi, nice to be here. You have no idea how much I'm honored to be on Waiting to Be Signed. Like, for me, it's really like the history of fxhash is accompanied all the time by your podcast. And by the way, I want to say that both you and Trinity, you are really lovely in What you have done, the way you speak all the time and the quiet tone and the way you put all guests at, uh, they're all relaxed. It's very nice what you have done. And really, I'm honored to be here. Yeah, really, really. That's like a dream come true to be here.

Speaker A: Appreciate it. Thank you.

Speaker B: My pleasure. So I can start from really long time ago when I was a kid. My first encounter with computers was when I was very, very young. Now I'm close to my 50s. And when I was like maybe 6 years old, I used to go to a friend's house who had been gifted this Commodore VIC-20, VIC-20 by his parents. And so I remember like we were playing all the time with this machine and we had this feeling like we had access to something really magical. And then one day his parents, they gifted him the Commodore 64. And so he gave me his VIC-20. And so I took it home, just plug it in, and that really was the beginning of everything. That was my first computer. I fell in love immediately. Like, I remember in the box there were like 2 books, the manual and the BASIC programming, like, book. And I started to copy the commands. I remember, like, the first program I ran was like 2 stupid seagulls made of ASCII characters flying around the screen. But I was hooked, really, I was hooked. I thought, wow, it's incredible. Like, you write text and you get an animation out of it. And that was it. And then my uncle was also very tech savvy. He always had computers. I used to play like really early MS-DOS games like Alley Cat and, you know, Frog where you have to cross the street when we were going to their place for Christmas or for holidays. And he gifted my father like a notebook, IBM notebook 286, I remember, like black and white. And my father never really connected with computers, so it sat there unused for a while. And so then I got it, I started to use it, and it became my first computer. And that was love at first sight. I started really spending a lot of time on it, just playing around with the system, MS-DOS at the time, tinkering with the autoexec.bat just to, you know, get memory out of it to run games. I was a lot into Piracy of software games, all kinds that you had to, you know, get from friends. It was not like with the internet era. It was much harder with copying floppy disks and stuff. And that was it. I was really in love with the machine and what you could do. And then also with video games. I remember I used to play a lot all the LucasArts adventures like Monkey Island, Zak McKracken's Maniac Mansion, Indiana Jones, all those. I really loved them. I have so many fond memories of playing those adventures. And then from there, I remember internet came. That same friend that got me the VIC-20, I come from a small village in Italy, like 5,000 people live there. He got the first modem and internet connection basically in the village. And so we got this agreement. He would use it during the day and I would use it at night for a small fee that I was giving him. And so I started to connect at night, trying to hide the noises of the modem from my parents. Which didn't work also because I remember the phone bills were a problem. But my mother, she understood that it was something I was passionate about. She told me, listen, as long as you do your job at school, it's fine, you can do it. And yeah, I was sleeping a little bit in the early hours at school because I was going to sleep at 4 AM, 5 AM to stay online just to download, you know, one image or whatever. It was so slow. There were BBS still, I remember at the time, the bulletin board system. Could connect and stuff. And so from there, I started to learn HTML even before JavaScript existed. I started to learn HTML, then JavaScript, and I was still very young, like 15, something like. And then people started to need websites and catalogs. And so like, it was a very natural transition. Like in my small village, I was basically the only one who really knew about this stuff. So people were coming to me like, we need a website or we need a catalog or whatever. Something graphics. I was using Photoshop version 1, I remember, the first version. And that's how everything started. So I found myself at 18 that I already had like my small business clients I was serving and doing stuff. In that same period, I really got into art, visual graphics. And so I decided when the university was coming, the time of the university, I decided to move to Milan, which is A couple of hours from where I come from, and I made a bachelor. I have a bachelor in fine arts with the media design specialization, which is something that was very new at the time. I think the first time they were doing it in the university, and there everything developed much more. I met Oliver, which is a very close friend of mine. That he was an immigrant from Serbia. He was coming from Serbia because Serbia had just was at the end of the war. That was a really tough time for them, and he is he was. Because he is really a genius, like someone that knows an incredible amount of things about computers, art, 3D animation, shaders, music. He's an amazing bass player, like amazing skills. And we studied together and we moved to live together. We shared a house and then we opened our first company together. We were doing mainly 3D, 3D animation, real-time 3D with the software I really loved called Virtuoz. This was way before Unity existed and this kind of engines. But after a while, like 3, 4 years, we were doing like events for media production for events, like pharmaceutical companies, stuff like that, which I really didn't like, but we needed money. But neither of us was really a businessman. This is a skill I never really managed to grow. We were very creative, but not really good in building a business and things didn't work out in the end. I decided to leave. I wasn't happy. I was in debt, honestly. And so we closed the company and I left. But what I learned during those years, thanks especially to Oliver and, you know, the context of Milano, the university, everything, it really shaped my path. After that, as a media designer, that's also where I got into photography. There was this course at the university, so I bought my first film camera, like a cheap secondhand Yashica, and I fell in love for photography right away. This was before digital existed, so it was a really different nature taking photos. The expenses of the film and developing the films. I had my small. Camera obscura. I don't know how you call it in English, you know, to develop films. And I started to do as a side job like reportage photography, which is probably still today the things that I love the most to do. As a job, since I live in Thailand, I never did it again, but it's really something I love. It allows you to enter into realities and, you know, to travel and see places that they would be otherwise inaccessible. And It really teaches you how to blend with the background and to observe, and you become very empathetic with the surroundings, and people accept you because you are there for a purpose. It's an amazing profession, but there's not much money involved. I never managed to make a living out of it. I was doing backstage for music clips, movies, events. But again, there too, you know, like when you have a passion and then you have to compromise in order to Make money out of it. It often ends up ruining it, and yeah, you lose that excitement that you have at the beginning. So it's a difficult balance that you need to find, which honestly I never found on that regard. So then I moved back to Garda, which is the village I come from. My mother was sick at the time, so I decided to stay for a while at home till things were, let's say, resolved. And and then I connected with the video production company in Bolzano, which is in the mountains. Up north. And so by chance, I ended up being like the executive producer, which is a joke because I was not one, but they were so desperate to find somebody willing to do that for this travel documentary. We went from Italy to Cape Town by Jeep in 2 months and a half. And so I was the executive producer in there, which was honestly the best adventure I had in my life. I met Yuri, which is another great friend of mine who is a a very good director and film producer. And so we did this trip together, and when we came back, we decided to try to open our video production company together, which we did for, let's say, 2 years and something. And we were focusing on documentaries, which again, I love, like reportage. It's something that really allows you to enter the most interesting situations. We did 2 documentaries about autism, which is a subject I really care about a lot, also for personal reasons. And we also had our fair share of, let's say, success. I mean, in a very bland way, we won some, you know, like festivals and stuff. That was nice. But again, we were doing commercials on the side, commercials and infographic and stuff just to make a living. And yeah, I was getting older, you know, like Italy is very unforgiving about taxes and bureaucracy.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: It's not easy to work in media in Italy. It's honestly a terrible place about that. And so I always wanted to leave Italy. I love developing countries. And then one day by chance, a friend of mine, he has restaurants in Italy and he said, I have these restaurants in Thailand. I really need to go and get rid of it because I don't have a manager anymore. That's sad because I think this restaurant has potential, but I don't have anyone anymore. So As a joke, I started to say, listen, I'm going to be your man. I can go. And he was very skeptical and I understand it because I couldn't really see a fork from a knife at the time. And I'd never been to Thailand. So that was really a blind call. But in the end, he was so desperate because he really had to take the plane, come and sell everything. He said, okay, let's try. We keep it together. And that's how it started. That was like 10 years ago, 11 years ago. So I moved to Thailand and I started working in the restaurant and then I really forgot about my previous life. I packed everything, was in a small bag. I had a notebook, the only thing I brought with me. And after a while I realized I was much more happy without all my books and equipment and camera, computers, like objects. They can really make you, let's say, a slave. Like you care about objects, but you also get anxiety from stuff.

Speaker A: Hmm.

Speaker B: You own, and the idea that I could pack all my life in one bag and be free really changed my perspective on life. Also living in such a simple place where you don't care anymore about how you dress, what you own. Like, I've never been into bourgeois, it's something I really despise, but here it's next level. Like, you live a simple life and everything flies more quietly and easily. And so that's how it started. I found myself in Thailand managing a restaurant. At the beginning, it wasn't easy for sure, but yeah, it's not a difficult job once you get a hold of it. It depends on the staff you have, but if you have good staff, it's an easy job, honestly. You don't need to think too much. It's not like finding customers, you know, building and being creative. It's much easier, much less...

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Heavy on the mind. So I basically forgot about computer. I was still doing some photography on the side. And then COVID came. That's where everything changed because the restaurant closed for 2 and a half years.

Speaker A: Oh, wow.

Speaker B: Yeah, completely closed. The island shut down. It was the first place in the world that shut down. People were saying, oh, Thais are stupid, but they honestly were so smart and ahead that they decided to close the island. After 2 months, we were COVID-free. And then for 2 years, we had like a private island, the best years of my life, hands down. Like everybody, my father is a doctor in Italy. His wife is a doctor. So every day I was speaking with them at the phone in the north of Italy, you know, the full COVID, full power COVID.

Speaker A: Yeah. I remember that the earliest reports were coming out of northern Italy, right? Those small cities, the small towns with elderly populations in particular, right? Like, were really suffering under that initial wave. COVID must have then, I mean, just like for Trinity and I, right? COVID and that kind of time, was that when you started getting interested in blockchain and NFTs? Like, I feel like that's a really common entry point for a lot of people, because all of a sudden you just had all this time on your hands, right?

Speaker B: Actually, I was into blockchain because I bought my restaurant selling my Bitcoins, which is something that still haunts me today. I bought my first Bitcoins for like $180. I watched the ICO of Ethereum expiring. I was completely broke. I remember the counter and all the, you know, the sparkling stuff coming out, and I couldn't send any Bitcoin at the time. I thought, no, I better not spend on this stuff right now. Big mistake. And then I slowly built a nice stash of Bitcoin, Ethereum. I had the Dogecoin, which they were selling as mDoge, MegaDoge at the time. I remember because they were so cheap, they were packed like Bulks of one million each. Imagine that, like we're buying millions and now. And so when I decided to buy the restaurant, I was broke. I sold everything. I sold my camera, my lenses, and then I didn't want to sell the cryptos because I was really thinking this is the future. All my friends and family, they were tired of listening to me saying, you know, I was obsessive about it. And now they all say we should have listened to you. And yeah, so in the end, I sold all my cryptos to. To manage to get the money to buy the restaurant, and of course, like three months later, they started to rally super hard. And then since then, I always bought back, and I became passionate about trading. I'm honestly a pretty good trader. I'm very in profit as a trader. I always sold at the top, around the top, and bought the bottom. So I'm very happy about that. Most of the things I could achieve, including surviving COVID, were thanks to buying and selling cryptos from buying the restaurant to. Yeah, everything else all came from crypto, which I love very much because of this. They did the Tezos ICO, so I had Tezos, but then it was stuck because of the lawsuit and stuff, so it was not going anywhere. And then because I was following the Tezos ecosystem during COVID Hic Et Nunc showed up on my radar. Like, that's the first time I heard, basically. I heard about CryptoPunks and stuff, but I never looked into it really. But then with Iktenung, I thought, oh, let's check this out. And from there it started. I discovered Iktenung like 3 days after it had opened and I started minting. I'm a little bit ashamed of saying it, but I started botting all the successful drops. Some I remember I bought like 100 editions out of 150. People were very pissed. But yeah, then I stopped doing it. The more I was, you know, like becoming part of the community, the more I felt better in doing it. A side of me thinks, you know, you have the right because you want this kind of free economy anarchist. Yeah, so that's what you get if you are more tech savvy. But yeah, I can see the downside. So yeah, and I started minting, I started exploring. I had like at a certain point maybe 8 different profiles, each one with its Twitter. It was like a full-time job.

Speaker A: Oh, wow.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I was trying to find a way, you know, experimenting with different styles and stuff.

Speaker A: But when you say minting, you mean you were also publishing your own work? Like you were—

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, publishing. Yes, I have this profile that is named Harvey McFly that had this moment of glory on Hic Et Nunc. I was doing these animations. They are 6-second loops of pyramids and they were selling out super quickly. But I'm like this, like I don't like winning easy, let's say. I like the new challenges. And it was a long time I wasn't doing 3D animation. So I really had to relearn everything, also how to 3D sculpting and how to rig characters, animation and stuff, because everything had changed a lot and I was very rusty. And so at each pyramid, I was raising the bar and then they were taking me like 1 month, 40 days to make one, working 6 hours, 7 every day, every night. In the morning, I was spearfishing. In the afternoon, playing padel. That was my COVID life. And in the night, I was doing the pyramids as Harvey McFly. And got some attention and success, but it was too much work. Like, I realized it couldn't work on the long term. I never believed that the NFT period would have lasted. I see the nature of cryptos. They go in cycles. I'm not a true believer of the value of NFTs, honestly. It's something I still today, I think they have to find their way. There's a lot of potential, But if you remove the speculation from them, there's not much left most of the times. So I started to do with my main profile that then became CCDB, I started to make interactive generative stuff, but on Hic Et Nunc, like publishing HTML pages. I think I was one of the early ones that were doing this with interactive 3D and stuff. I made this kaleidoscope series that was pretty much collected and liked. And so that's how I got into NFTs and stuff. But then I had this issue that I was, you know me a little by this point, you know that I can be critical sometimes. Like if I see something and I think it's not as I think it should be, I speak out. And I started to criticize Rafa on Hic Et Nunc and the fact that I got close to some people. I don't mention their names because I know they wanted to move on in life. They did different things. Some they went on building nice platform and stuff. Some they just gave up, but they were all screwed by Rafa that he promised to people the money and the holds. And you know, like to structure everything. And meanwhile, he was not even paying for the bandwidth and for the servers. It became like a joke. Hic Et Nunc was always broken. And then I started to notice movements of the funds to Binance. And when I started questioning this, I was kicked out of the Discord. I remember Mikol from Vertical Crypto trying to ask to him the reasons, but I don't know if you're familiar. He just complained saying that, you know, like the ugly colonizers wanted to take over his platform. Yeah, he just ran with the money, which by the way was his money. Honestly, it was his money. Nothing wrong with that. But I don't think that he was transparent in his intents. Anyway, that really set me down because it was the first time I realized how much, you know, online it's dangerous to speak out your mind. And if you get censored on a platform, it's game over. Like, you completely lose your voice and your ability to participate. So that was a lesson for sure. And for a while, I just didn't participate anymore. I was following, and then FX came, and that's when everything really connected. Like I thought, oh, this is really interesting. Generative art, coding, JavaScript, the browser, real-time 3D. I can do whatever. Like my experience in arts and composition, video games, whatever. Everything really connected for the first time in my life. Like everything had a meaning. Everything had a place to fit nicely together, and that's when I fall in love with. generative art and I started publishing on fxhash.

Speaker A: So first of all, I barely remember, well, not barely, but I was, I was barely there for the whole dissolution of Hic Et Nunc. Like I had been collecting a little bit on HEN just because I had heard about Tezos from a friend and that was the only place I knew to do anything with it was like go to HEN and buy some art. But we did a trip while my wife was pregnant, you know, in the US we call that a babymoon. Like you do a trip before, like one last trip before the baby is born. And it was while we were away on that trip that I was looking at Twitter and all the fallout and people were like, he left and HEN is gone. And then it was only maybe a month or two later after that that I found fx hash. So you were telling me offline that, yeah, it was like that closure, like that got you interested in generative art. But some of the projects that you did that I see on OBJKT under that McFly wallet, like these frogs of the past, like these 3D sculptures, were these all made by hand?

Speaker B: Those are all AI. They are AI.

Speaker A: So those are more recent things, like kind of like post-FX hash.

Speaker B: Yeah, more recent. I still use that profile and I like to explore, like, something that fascinates me is the ability to get coherence out of AI. So I like to make those projects where I refine prompts and I use reference images in order to achieve a large number of outputs that are coherent and polished. For example, Frogs of the Past is made with very early versions of language models. You can see they have defects and stuff. While the last one I did called Heads is more recent. There are 100 outputs. They took me a long time to make, and those also are made with language models, but they are like very well refined, and I managed to get a coherence in the outputs, in the pedestals and everything that I thought it was impossible with language models, and it turned out it's not if you refine the prompts and the reference images you keep using and feeding to the language model. So that's something I kept doing. It doesn't fit with my main, you know, generative art stuff. Also, Harvey McFly is dumb. Like, you know, I made the dumbest kingdom and I'm often a silly person. I like joking a lot. I like not to take things too seriously. And Harvey McFly is like that side of me where I can publish stuff that is more silly and more fun. And I use it to experiment, but I never put anything of that for sale. At the beginning, I thought selling AI-generated stuff wasn't fair. Now my mind changed about that. I can see a value in it, but still, they sit there. It's not about selling. It's just about history and the trace that has provenance recorded about what I do and the things I do as McFly. Sometimes I have an idea. I just go back to McFly. I make it. I publish it. Sometimes I don't even make a post on Twitter because McFly is basically dead as a reach. Nobody gives a shit about him. With McFly, the last things I did, let's say manually, was the Dumbest Kingdom, which I'm honestly very, very proud of. Maybe it sounds stupid, but it's really one of the things I'm the most proud in my life because they are 100 little characters made on 8BitDo and they are 8 by 8 pixels. And yeah, if you ever tried to make something 8 by 8, you realize that there's really little room of movement to achieve something meaningful. So I made like 1, 2 at the time.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: per day for a long time. And each one have a little story, a little silly story. And then I was selling them, then I decided to stop selling and I started gifting them to people I like or I admire, other artists. And slowly I'm building up this silly community of inhabitants.

Speaker A: That explains it.

Speaker B: They are not for sale.

Speaker A: I was looking through when you shared that and I saw that there's a link to adopt and I couldn't figure out how to buy one. But I wasn't sure if it was because ApeBadoo wasn't really working anymore or what. But you have a list of everyone who's got one. Like I see Zancan's on here, Pure Spider, Funny Guys, you know, Mario Klingemann. So you have—

Speaker B: Yeah, the names are pulled from the blockchain. Yeah. People that have them in their wallet that they were willing to get one. They are all people I connected with. I said, would you like to have one? Some of those people, they bought the early ones that were for sale, but Pretty soon I just removed the listing and I didn't sell them anymore. They are just a side project. I have this idea of doing a DAO one day, which is the dumbest autonomous organization. Yeah, to promote art and stuff a bit. But yeah, that's like a silly dream for another day. Yes.

Speaker A: Well, yeah, let's get back to fxhash then. So looking at your CCDDBB profile, I feel like you had a probably a similar arc to a lot of people who got into generative art. Through fxhash, there's like a lot of things that look like sketches, right, of you just kind of like learning how to create algorithmically like this. So yeah, do you want to talk a little bit about getting into generative art? Like, obviously you had a background in JavaScript, so I'm sure that part was easy enough, right? But what were those early days of fxhash like for you? And kind of walk us through trying to publish work, you know, way back in the glory days.

Speaker B: My first project was Kaleidos Triangle. Which is taken from those experiments I mentioned before I was doing on Hic Et Nunc using HTML and the library for 3D called Babylon.js. I use sometimes Three.js, but I like Babylon.js. It's more straightforward. It's very powerful. It's similar to Three.js. So I was doing this kaleidoscope in real-time 3D, playing with shaders and textures and effects on the texture. So I made like Penrose triangles. The impossible triangle with these kaleidoscopic textures. And I published it in the first month of the existence, if I remember correctly, of fxhash. It sold out. There's a bug actually in the capture of the preview of the thumbnail. Yeah, I see that. Some ended up having a black thumbnail. Yes. So some has been barred. And so that was my first project and it came quickly because I basically recycled what I was doing previously on Hic Et Nunc. With this new shape of the Penrose triangle. And then, as you say, the following projects, they were like sketches, experiments. I'm honestly, if I could go back, I wouldn't publish them.

Speaker A: I think a lot of people say that now.

Speaker B: For sure. Yes. When you look at your past work, you have a different point of view. And I knew JavaScript, but I knew nothing about generative art. And I must say that the most fond memories I have, which is something that sadly now with language models is completely lost, are the people that taught me me everything about this, like Marching Square is one of the founders of object.com. He's a very good friend and Pure Spider and Shig, NFT Shig, all those people, they are, they were my crew during the COVID times in the NFT area. And we were spending days in the Discord talking and chatting and everything I know, everything I learned, I owe to them. They have a much higher technical level than the one I have. So they taught me everything from noise, you know, how to use noise, Perlin noise, simplex noise, and filling curves or whatever, marching cubes, marching squares. I suck at maths, so that's also something. I have some pieces of my code that have been written by them, also ordering cows, that now is not anymore, I think, on Twitter. Yeah, all those people, they are lovely people with the passion for sharing and teaching without anything in return. And thanks to them, I a lot. I learned about all the techniques involved with generative art. And so you can see probably from the early works, you know, you can, like for many other artists, you can see when someone has discovered the noise or started to tinker with the various algorithms. And then I started to really develop a more sophisticated approach. I don't think many artists on fxhash in generative art has really explored the full potential of algorithmic art. There is this tendency to narrow a lot the outputs. And probably this comes also from the necessity of doing things quickly because it's a world that moves very fast. So you need to iterate fast. And also from the fact that the collectors probably have a tendency to prefer recognizable things. So when you narrow down the aesthetics of the outputs, you know, it becomes much more recognizable. And I can see that a lot of the successful projects had actually a very narrow aesthetic in the outputs. But for me, This was always a limitation, and I started to introduce profiles in projects like Noisy Gardens or Furry Gradients. If you check them out, you will see that there are different profiles, completely different. And this allowed me to introduce rarity in a more meaningful way. I find a little cheap the fact that rarity was always associated with, you know, this has the black background or the pink background, whatever. Yeah, that's a very simple basic use of rarity that doesn't unlock the true potential of generative art. Generative art, in my opinion. While with profiles, I used to have a main algorithm and then all the various profiles. And one profile, for example, Noisy Gardens, you have the pond and the river and, you know, the farm. And so then you can give a probability to each profile and you end up with the rare profiles instead of simply rare colors or palettes. And this unlocks a lot of possibilities, but at the same time requires much more work. Those algos, they took me almost 2 months each. Also, Fourier gradients took not so much to develop the core algo, but then to build all the profiles and explore, you know, different creative ideas to generate with that algo. And that's something that I still do. I'm doing it with my Plottable Mesh project now. And that's something that I would love to see it more used as an approach because it really unlocks a lot of opportunities. Many times I see algorithms that are very beautiful in generative art, and then they have 300 outputs or 500 outputs. 100 outputs and they end up looking all similar, but the potential was huge in that algorithm to create more variety. And so yeah, some of the projects I published are basically sketches, as you said. They are nice, but nothing I'm particularly proud of. And some others have meaning. Also Milena's Flowers is nice. I like it. It's an early project I did, but it uses circle packing. So the flowers, they never overlap each other and they create this nice composition.

Speaker A: The first one I remember collecting from you, it was probably from 2 or maybe even 3 years ago. Let me take a look here. Yeah, 2023 was Power Ranges. And I'm wondering now, because after Power Ranges, all the work that you put on fxhash looks like very plottable, like you followed it up with Line Length and then Mount St. Helene and Astro Doodles. So is Power Ranges actually plottable? Is this something where you were starting to— because it kind of looks like it could be.

Speaker B: Correct. Yeah, you're very correct. It could be. And many times I— because I considered it a failed project. There is a sweet spot the algorithms when you work, where you should stop, you should fucking stop. And then with the power ranges, I didn't stop. And so it ended up being, if I see the outputs, like I don't like probably 85, 90% of them, I don't like them. My algorithms, they become very complex in terms of parameters and stuff. And when you have this level of interplay between variables and parameters, it's very delicate and you should pay attention. Mm-hmm. When you tinker with them because it's a balance that is very easy to break. And with Power Rangers, I definitely broke it and it's not plottable and it's technically not well made. It's very heavy. Then I learned different techniques and different ways to do things so I could do it much more performant and plottable. And maybe one day I will do it, could be. But yeah, it's not plottable. And every time I look at it, I feel a little bit sad because There was a moment in time when I thought that algorithm had a great potential, but as it ended up, it surely didn't feel like that to me in the end. And as you say, that was the last project I did that was not portable. Then we need to blame surely Zancan for this because I always loved his work. I think he's the most mature artist we have in the space. It's not a coincidence that he was a painter and he really comes from From background in arts, even more than computers, but he's super skilled also as a coder and in computers. And he did the charcoal seeds, that incredible algorithm that is charcoal seeds. That's beautiful, beautiful. And the way he uses the line to hatch around the scene is something magical. I was spending like really hours just following the line and looking how it behaves and the curvature and how it runs around the scene, marking objects and defining spaces, empty areas. Feeling areas. And so that's when I really thought, oh, this is something I want to learn and to understand. And that's how I ended up obsessed by the single line, because I started to play with the line. And then I don't know, by chance, I thought, let's just keep it intact and never break the line. And so I started to dig into this weird world of one-liners that, you know, like Picasso, Matisse, some painters and others. It's something that is recurrent in the history of art. Many people practice one-liners, portraits, made in one line. Then there is the amazing work of Piter Pasma that he made the one-liner hatching algorithm that is something magical and he used it for a few projects. So yeah, I fell in love with one-liners and I had this obsession that I still have about one-liners. I also thought maybe that could be, you know, like I think to be a successful artist, you need to be recognizable. You need to have something that is associated with you. And this is something that I never had because as you can see from my projects, I keep jumping from one thing to another, and I get bored very quickly. I keep changing, and so if you keep changing, you never really establish your style and your name in something. And with the one-liners, I thought this is maybe my opportunity to become more recognizable, to have something that people can associate with me and my name. And also the challenge and the constraint that comes from working with a single line were very exciting to me. I developed so many techniques, you have no idea how many techniques I developed and, you know, scripts and techniques, yeah, to add decorations, to bend the line and to never break it. So I did that Line Length -1, that project that I really love for Atelier, and it's a project about death. There are, if I remember correctly, 16 different outputs, and there is a text, lyrics in each of them, and half of them I wrote them and half of them I asked my dear friends like Shig, Paul Prudence wrote me one. Piers Spider, I asked them to write a sentence, a concept, and then I put them in words. Also White Cross, Alessandro Fiore, who is an amazing generative artist, has a great touch. Everything he touches is beautiful. And yeah, you made a project with him, you know. And so that one also, I really love that project and the fact that he connected me with the atelier reality. And then Mount Sant'Eline is made for My partner, Silvia. If you check out in each output, there is a couple holding hands, but there is this little secret. If you open it in the browser and you add like the variable in the URL and you write kids equal 1, you get 1 kid because we knew we wanted kids, but we didn't have one yet. And so I wanted to have the option to add kids. So you can add up to, I don't know, I don't remember if 5 or 6 kids you can add. Now I have a kid, so maybe I will plot one with 1 kid. And it's volcanoes because Silvia, she loves volcanoes. She's obsessed by volcanoes. So I made her this Mount Santelaine. The name is brilliant, I think, and it was given by Marching Square. And yeah, so I was obsessed with the single line, but then I stopped publishing on fxhash when they closed it. So I kept working on the single line. All things can be found on my website. I have many other single liners. And then my daughter was born and I felt like I needed color in my life, you know, like, yeah, I love the single line, but now I need, I need color again. And so I started to develop Plottable Mesh, this algo that, you know.

Speaker A: Yeah, I've been doing my best to get the word out there by reposting it on Twitter and—

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, that's nice of you.

Speaker A: That's not a single line, I have to imagine, right? Because it's multiple colors, but surely like a lot of what you learned Coding-wise, creating all of those Plottr projects were helpful in coming to this one. And I know that you've continued to work on it, and like, I feel like every month or so the outputs that you share look markedly different because it seems like maybe you've added another branch, right? You've added another—

Speaker B: Correct.

Speaker A: Style to the array of outputs.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: It seems like the project could support thousands of outputs easily by generative standards. So first of all, like, do you consider it done yet? Because I know you— we had talked bit last year even about you trying to find a place to put it out, but you've continued to develop it. How do you see it now? Is it a project that's just going to live on social media? Is it still looking for a home? Tell us a bit more about it in general.

Speaker B: So first of all, the fact that I own a restaurant has been very freeing because, uh, now I don't need to monetize my art, which is something that really unlocked something for me. I do whatever I like. If I'm not in the mood, I don't do it. If nobody wants to buy it, I don't care. Absolutely don't care. I don't have a lot of consideration for the critical level in the crypto art space, which is pretty low, the bar. I think everyone should make a quick course of art history and realize that 99% of the things we were promoting as extraordinary, they are not. And if you For example, have Instagram and follow artists on there. You will see that the amount of talent and amazing stuff that comes out every day outside of the crypto space is stunning, and most of the things we see in the crypto space are copied from that, or you know, like a blend version. So what I think is interesting right now is that galleries and curatorial efforts are coming out. I have a lot of esteem for Reality. Like Verse and the HEFT Gallery, all these realities that are fostering quality and fostering artists, promoting them, helping them to really build a sustainable path. That's something that interests me much more right now. And also, I think it's time to rethink how we share art. Uh, this is something I have in mind since a long time. Historically, artists, they always protected their craft, the ability to produce physicals which they They can first of all represent an economic return, but also you have control of the production that is around and the quality of that production. And releasing algorithms in the open like we are doing with generative art, it's very pop, but at the same time really kills any of these opportunities. People can print out their outputs. I did many times. I have beautiful impressions of work there on my wall or whatever like that I printed and the artist didn't get anything. From it. And also you can copy or learn or study other people's algorithms, which especially now in the age of AI, it's very dangerous because it's very easy to just rip off other people's works and build on top of it and they don't get anything. And I see many artists now are having the same approach and galleries and projects that they release a curated series of outputs, but they don't release the code. And you must connect with them or with the artist or the gallery if you want a print. And this to me makes sense. So going back to Plottable Mesh, at the beginning I wanted to release it on FXHash. Then when I discovered that they were sunsetting the Tezos support, I really got pissed, honestly, because they said the opposite for a long time, even personally to me. They guaranteed me that Tezos would remain. And then they said, ah, no, sorry, Tezos no more. Which I can understand. I'm not judging. It's their platform. It's their decision, and I can see the rationale behind it. But then they did this, in my opinion, really unfair move of making art coins mandatory. They said to me also privately, "Please publish that algorithm of yours on FXH. You can use the FXH token to mint it, so you don't need art coins." But then And when that time came, oh, art coins are mandatory. And this is something that really upset me because first of all, I don't believe in tokenizing everything. This is something that I find very stupid and very prone to distortion. And second, I think it really destroys the liquidity because already we had the problem of liquidity in generative art and we have to find the balance with the cyclical nature of cryptos and the fact that the platform and all these realities need to survive the winter. Of the crypto cycles. And yeah, there was no liquidity. I didn't see how fragmenting the liquidity into 1 million of art coins could help. And I think reality is proving me right about this lately because really there's no liquidity in them and they introduced complexity that still now I can see. If you go check now, the last conversation on their Discord is probably NFT bikers. So I mean, people that knows their fair share about how things work with the blockchain that is confused about why I cannot buy using the token. Of Putana, and then FXS saying, "Yeah, we are talking with the providers and stuff." And then I mean, if those people, which are basically the only one left, are confused, imagine regular collectors and artists. So all this really made me decide not to publish anymore on FXS. I don't believe in layer two. I think that's a contradiction in terms of decentralization. If we go blockchain, we go decentralized. Otherwise, doesn't make much sense to me, especially layer two on Ethereum. That's one side. And then yeah, the obligation of doing art coins. Also the legal aspect of it. When I raised the matter, it was dismissed like oh yeah, our lawyers looked into it and it's totally fine. But you know, like I live in Thailand, as you know, and I can assure you, you don't want to find yourself explaining to the revenue department. What the fuck a hard coin is and how it works and why it's totally innocent. And the laws can change, but the blockchain is unforgiving. It doesn't change. So many people live in countries where they could have issues for this. I talk with a lot of artists and collectors behind the scenes. Very few are willing to speak publicly. You also know this. Most of the people have been alienated by all this. And that's why in the end I decided not to publish Plottable Mess on FXS. And I think that was for good. I'm happy I didn't. I don't have much reach. I don't have a big audience, especially now in the crypto winter. So I just kept working on it. Now I have like more than 100 profiles. And as you said, as you noticed, I keep exploring new venues. I introduced now kaleidoscopes. One day I thought, oh, what if I make a kaleidoscope script? I cut them in pieces. And so I introduced the tessellation kaleidoscopes and other techniques. And I keep exploring the algorithm and I keep plotting them. I keep experimenting with different paper and pens, gel pen, technical pens, on cardboard, black paper. It's very hard to find reliable ones. Most of the pens, they let you down, maybe 80% of the plotting, which is something I really love about plotting, that it takes so much time and effort to get to the end. And it's just one little mistake or the pen that clogs, whatever, can really spoil hours of plotting and patience, but it really gives, adds on the value of the final products. And you can perceive this effort that when it comes all together and in the end you have this beautiful output plotted, there is something that gives so much satisfaction. This is also something I totally owe to Zancan. Looking at his plots really inspired me, the level of precision, you know, and quality he can reach with plotter. Amazing.

Speaker A: Given the depth of the algorithm, I mean, everything that you've shared, and I would encourage it, we'll link to it obviously below in the show notes. And if you follow CCDDBB on Twitter or on Instagram, you've also been sharing the outputs there. There's tons of great stuff to go back and look at, and I've been really impressed with them for a while now and eagerly waiting to collect. But I'm curious, like, so then given the depth, would you ideally want to release it as like a long form somewhere, or do you feel like it's something that you want to curate? Because, you know, again, we've talked about this, like different ways that you could release. Like, you know, Andreas Rau had his calendar project from years back where like one a day he just posted it and it was like a one-of-one that anyone could go buy. So you could curate it over time or curate a big batch, or I guess now like it looks like Bootloader maybe could be an option where you could do a long form and then have people come to you and pay extra to get a plot. Like in your mind, like ideally, how would you want to release it?

Speaker B: At this point, I'm pretty sure I don't want to release the algo. I think there's so much work in it and all the techniques I developed, I don't want to make it public, honestly. I grew very protective of the code, especially after those reflections I talked to you before. I am every day less inclined to release the code, that's for sure. I will not do a long form where people can mint from the code. I would love to do a curated series, that's for sure. For example, I really love I loved the pixel shader one, the last one he did with the HEFT Gallery. That was an amazing, beautiful series and they were curated. And then you had the ability, if you wanted, the possibility to acquire the physical that he makes by hand, which is incredible how he managed to get the same, very same feeling and, you know, like texture that he got in the algo. So that's the ideal. And then, I don't know, the more I work on it, as you said, I have all the history published on Instagram or Twitter. And sometimes I just scroll back and there are so many outputs I don't even remember I made them. And I think, oh wow, look at this one. Oh yeah, now I recall I've been here too. And I have like a pack of plotted, which I should do something because here, you know, the humidity in the air in Thailand, they get ruined if I just leave them inside my desk to rot. But I I have at least 50 of them that are plotted from A3+ format down to 16 by 16 centimeters. So I really have a lot of material already plotted and finished. But at the same time, it's not finished. It's never finished. Maybe it will never be. Like, I'm enjoying the process. I'm enjoying plotting them. I tried to sell a few, honestly. Like, 3 weeks ago, I put 5 nice A4 made on black paper with gel pens on object for 300 Tezos each, which is like $100. I think it's basically for free, but I didn't sell any.

Speaker A: I totally missed that.

Speaker B: Yeah, but I have very little reach lately, especially the fact that I keep publishing the same post, just changing the number of the output doesn't help because of course the algorithm of Twitter likes new content and like this you don't help the algorithm to promote you. And also, you know, things are not exactly shiny lately with the space. So yeah, I don't have much reach. And then I just delisted them because I thought it doesn't make any sense to sell one or two and then they are out there. And so I delisted them. They are still minted, but I delisted the tokens. And I had a little talk with Jamie from Verse Worlds about this, also with Adam from HEFT Gallery. They both showed appreciation for the series, but they couldn't envision a place for it at the moment in their curatorial space. So yeah, that's probably where I would like it to end up, with a nice gallery I respect and like for what they do, that takes care of it, also of the promotional side, which is something I'm very lacking about and I don't like. It's not in my courts, the marketing and promotional part. That's what I would like, a curated series made by some entity I respect and like that make it shine. Otherwise, I don't care. It can just sit there and yeah, that's fine. Let's move on to the next thing. Lately I'm very, very relaxed. You know, I do art, I always did art only because I enjoy it. And then with COVID the money started to flow around and money is necessary, but it's also very corruptive. It corrupts everything and it also corrupts your thoughts and you start thinking based on money and not based on what you really enjoy. Yeah. Really wish to achieve. That's also why the production in general in the space is cheap, and people prioritize being quick, you know, and going to market when market is favorable. And this doesn't foster quality at all as a mechanism. And also the fact that they promote their own bags, or, you know, what is already under the spotlight, this makes very hard for For emerging artists to get seen and have their opportunity. And right now is the best moment in time because who was here for the money has left. Speculators are nowhere to be seen. And people that are still doing art, they do it just because they really need to do it, love to do it, and like to share it. And yeah, in my opinion, very healthy and beautiful moment for the space where we need to find our way, where We need to find purpose and foster quality and build something meaningful that have the opportunity to be long-term standing and not just, you know, like flowing in this river of speculative generative tokens that come and go very fast. Lately, I've seen a lot of beautiful stuff made by people that really care and promoted by people that care and are knowledgeable. know what they are doing. I really like what's going on.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think we're all really uncertain about what's going to happen in the space over the next 1, 2 years, however long this next bear market rides out. Because, you know, like we've said on the show, it feels like the bull market never came to art and NFTs this time around. So I'm sure a lot of platforms that were banking on something similar to 2021 happening again, you know, just, it just didn't happen. Yeah, I don't know if that means it's opportunity. for fresh creators to come in with new platforms and new ideas, say in 2029 or whenever we might be lucky enough to see interest again, or if it just means we do just have this more closed curated experience with galleries or platforms like Verse that are very selective. Hard to say. I don't know what's preferable. I mean, we had so much fun in those early days just minting stuff, but like you said, I think a lot of us, our tastes have changed. Yeah. And looking back, a lot of the early things that maybe we got excited about, we wouldn't be so excited about them anymore necessarily.

Speaker B: The question we should all ask ourselves is, where will be that excitement if we remove money from the equation? And that's, I think, where the true answer lies. Like many other things in life, you know, like it's easy to get excited when there's money to make. Make. Money is necessary, money is useful, money can foster quality and beauty, but cannot be the main driver. And in cryptos in general, money is the main driver, is always been the main driver. And crypto suffers of this, you know, like a constant lie of, uh, yeah, we do it for the culture, whatever it means. I find it ridiculous. We it for whatever reason, when in reality we do it because there's money to be made. I talk about myself and I think I'm not one of the, let's say, the worst one about this. And many others, most of the people that were in it, and many of them have disappeared because there's not money to be made. So yeah, that's the question I would ask myself. Like, what are we building? Are we— art is not necessary. Yeah. Like from economic point of view, like it's totally useless. So why are we doing art? Why are we buying art? Why are we buying tokens on a blockchain? Like those are all questions we should ask ourselves. And maybe if the answer is to make money, we should rethink paradigm or be honest and just face the fact that we are trading Pokémon cards dressed like generative tokens. And yeah, be honest about it. And the fact that there are cycles and if you enter well in the cycle, like these Bitcoin, you can make money. And if you get stuck with the short sticker, you get wrecked and you lose the money. And that's it. And that is what happened with all this project, you know. I see some— I don't make names, but I see some like coping hard, like, oh, this is a good moment to buy. And then one month later, the floor goes down. Oh, this is a good moment to buy. No, it's not. Because, you know, like, the real question is, how comes this It was so expensive, you know, like that's not justified. And with physical, I think we are going back to a more sustainable nature of things. I like that we can have tangible expressions of an algorithm and of an artist's production. They can be showcased in galleries, they can be sold, they can have a real rarity, and they survive a bug in the blockchain or The missing electricity, whatever it is, or IPFS expiring. So I like that.

Speaker A: But are you still a long-term believer in things like Bitcoin and Ethereum, like L1s at least? Is it something that you believe in, or do you believe in it only to the extent that you believe that it'll continue to be like a speculative opportunity, like for trading?

Speaker B: Like many other things, you know, like the world tends to be a very polarized place in general. And if you are not white, it means you play with the blacks. And if you are not with the blacks, it means you play with the whites. And if you try to stay in the middle, it's very hard to survive because you're not liked by the whites and you're not liked by the blacks. And there are no gray team. You are only the one that, yeah. So about the blockchain, since day one, I thought that this is brilliant. Like when I read, for example, the Ethereum white paper before Vitalik created Ethereum, I thought, what the fuck, mate, if you really manage to make a Turing machine in blockchain, This is gonna be a game changer. This is brilliant, and I was hoping he could manage to do it, and he did it, and he changed the world forever with it, and also Bitcoin. But at the same time, I see the downsides of all this. I see that we like to play, you know, like not your keys, not your money. But at the same time, someone can enter your house and point a gun to your daughter and get everything you own. And if you have everything in the bank, this cannot happen. Or if you lose your keys, you lose everything. So there are so many aspects how it favored crime and how it favored, you know, the people say, oh, blockchain is transparent. No, it's not. I mean, it is, but if the effort to see what's happening and if the interplay of different legislative, how would you say, like legal frameworks of different countries make it too hard or too expensive to really enforce the law, it becomes like a very good instrument for doing illegal stuff. Myself, I used cryptos in ways that were not exactly, you know, transparent and legal. And yeah, there are many, many aspects to it. And I think there are pros and cons. And I think that decentralization is a super beautiful thing. And transparency is something I truly believe in, but it needs frameworks. And I don't think a sustainable society can live out of a truly decentralized system because you need to be able to enforce the law and you need to be able to fix mistakes. And you cannot just say, oh no, we just burnt $3 billion, I'm sorry guys, you know, whatever. And also you need a stable currency To build economies, which is something that everybody should have learned by now. They all you know pretend like it's cool to have Ethereum or Tezos or whatever. Maybe Tezos not because it always sucked about price action, but as the currency. But this is nice as far as the price keep rising. You do nothing and you become richer. You see your real value in fiat because in the end we all think in fiat, not in Ethereum. Growing and growing without doing anything. This is not healthy because it's not healthy to get rich without doing anything, and it's not healthy to lose everything because things turn the other way. And so I don't know much about economy, but for sure I understood that if you want to build a reliable and working economy, you need stability. You need a stable currency. Cryptos are not a stable currency. And when FXS said we are gonna price everything in US dollars, I thought, oh, finally some Somebody seeing the light, you know, like, but then it came out that it is just the conversion. It's not that everything works in dollars, just that this conversion is even more confusing because one day it's $100, then the next day is $90. And you think, why I'm paying less or paying more for the same thing of yesterday? So that's not what I had in mind.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And yeah, so I'm a believer in the decentralized technology of blockchain. I'm a believer in the fact that there are use cases for NFTs. In the randomness, controlled randomness, distribution, fair distribution, transparency. There is so much that decentralization has brought to the table that could improve humanity and the world as a whole. But as usual, what I'm seeing is not exactly in that direction. And I have the feeling that as usual, who has control is using everything, all of this to their advantage. A lot of people are getting screwed in the meanwhile, and a lot of people are simply playing black or playing white without really understanding what's going on because it's a complex subject and a complex technology with many shades that requires knowledge, which you don't need to use an ATM card in the bank account or whatever. So yeah, I'm a believer, but not like in that sense that, you know, crypto should replace the traditional finance system. No, we should keep the best of both and try finally to build a more transparent and fair and honest and safe space for everyone. Do I believe it will happen? Not at all. Do I think potential? Yeah, for sure. And blockchain technology could be a nice useful tool in order to achieve that.

Speaker A: My main concern right now is just deciding if I want to get back in for one more cycle or not. And if I think that we're topped out just as an industry, but that's a whole other discussion and a whole other podcast.

Speaker B: I want as many cycles as they can.

Speaker A: Same, same. But I'm fearful after this one. This one felt like a real dud of a cycle, to be honest. Anyways, well, look, I know unfortunately I'm the one who has a hard out today, but we got to a lot of what I wanted to talk to you about. And before we go, you know, if there's anything else that you want to plug or You know, sometimes we like to ask if there's any music or media you want to talk about, anything that you want to throw out there for the listeners who made it this far to go check out.

Speaker B: Music is something I really love. I suck at music, sadly. I have a piano, but the piano doesn't like me when I get close to him. Yeah, I love music, but yeah, I listen all kinds of music every day. I look for new music, like something that fills my life. I hope my daughter will have a lot of music every day. I play her something different. Different from classical to rap to reggae, whatever, progressive. But if I just have to say a name, something that you're liking a lot lately, something that you found, maybe something new or something that's new to you, something that I really love, someone that I really love and they always comes back in my life, is Andrew Bird. Oh yeah, yeah, Andrew Bird is really one of a kind. And but there's so many artists and music. Melte lately, lately, not lately, but Melte Also, they are a band, a huge band with many people. They play.

Speaker A: I don't know, Melt. There is one thing I wanted to ask you about that we didn't get to, and I'll cut this out, but it was the wallet. And I realized that actually the first project from you is There and Then that I collected, the one that you released with the wallet.

Speaker B: Sure, sure, the wallet. Yeah, yeah, that's nice. If you want, I can talk about that.

Speaker A: Yeah, if you can, if you have a quick, a quick bite, because I do have to go.

Speaker B: Yeah, okay, let's try to pack it down. So the It's a project that was born thanks to Django Beat. He's a user on Twitter. He goes by the name Django Beat. I think he's a very hardcore Ethereum. He's into crypto. I don't know him personally, but I know he's a hardcore crypto guy. And he one day just published the seed phrase of Tezos wallet, but it works also on Ethereum. There's the wallet on Ethereum and made it public. And he just put, I don't remember if 3 Tezos or whatever on it. And I was the first person on Twitter to see the post and to put seed phrase in the wallet and access that wallet. And from there, people started to use it. And it created this weird and beautiful dynamic where everybody can publish from the wallet. Many artists did it, especially on type.art that now doesn't exist anymore. You know, the ASCII text platform on Tezos. Yeah, I remember it. Yeah. Mario Klingemann was, I remember, one of the people using the wallet. And also you can never be sure about who is really publishing. I can publish saying I'm you and you cannot know because we share the And as soon as money started to flow into the wallet, people started to bot it because they wanted to steal the money, to get the money out of it. So like the honeypot addresses on Ethereum. So it became harder and harder to mint from it because to mint you need to put some money. And then as soon as you put the money, somebody gets it out. So it became basically inaccessible because of greed, which is a very beautiful, interesting dynamic that has created. And so I used it. For a long time, I was publishing on Type Hard, collecting with it and doing— I also founded other wallets that are siblings of the wallet and you don't know, you know, who is behind them because that money comes from the wallet. You found another wallet and you can create another profile with it. So yeah, I really enjoyed it and many others together with me. And then it became unusable because of bots, but then it got forgotten basically. And so at a certain point, there is this NFT profile, I don't know who it is, that since the very early days they started following the wallet and what they were publishing, you know, reporting about it. And then one day they sent me a message on Twitter and said, you could do something on fxhash using the wallet. I thought that that's a brilliant idea. I never thought about it. Yes. And so I put together this project that is called There and Then, which is, you know, a reference to Hic et Nunc, which means here and now. Mm-hmm. And I released it from the wallet for zero Tezos for free, but I kept half of the outputs for myself. But NFT Biker understood the dynamics. He got access and he minted some for himself too. That was brilliant. And so I kept half of them. I minted them and sent them to my own address. I still have a lot of those. Outputs. And so I released that project there and then. And that's a nice history behind the color palettes, because the color palettes I used, they have name of artists which they didn't know at the time they were being used. That comes from another project that was a PFP of 6,666 outputs that I created as McFly together with an artist I really like, that his name is This Is a Robot, that now is a long time He's not active on Twitter anymore, but Nico is his name. And we did that project together. We finished it. They still sit in my computer, but we never released it. It was already at the beginning of the winter market. And in the end, we didn't release it. And we asked other artists to provide, friends, artists to provide the color palettes for that project. And so I had this series of color palettes provided by artists. I recycled them. me into Derenden as an homage to, you know, because they were all artists from Hic Et Nunc era. And so yeah, that's— I released it from the wallet and that's basically the only project on fxhash that has been released from the wallet. Then recently I made that Grid project called Grid because using the art coins is just probably a silly statement that I did one night that I was pissed at fxhash for what they did with art coins. And so I made this very basic project where you can mint green or red and then you keep minting and you have this, it's an open form and you just get a series of red and green like the candles in a graph. They are random. The token is called Grid and is representative of my vision of the world art coin.

Speaker A: Very cool.

Speaker B: So that's the wallet. I suggest everyone to go dig it because there's a lot of interesting stuff minted on it. And it is a very peculiar project that is still usable. You can find the seed phrase, you can mint from it, or you can participate in this.

Speaker A: Yeah, everyone go check it out. I'll link to the Twitter. That should be a place that people can start. And I'll link to as much of your stuff in the show notes as well for people to go check out your art. Probably not going to have everything because like you said, you've got so many WODs, but I'll link to the ones I know about. We got to go. I got to jump onto a meeting. But Claudio, thanks so much. It was so awesome to get to talk to you. I really do look forward to, hopefully someday, some kind of release of Plottable Mess. Yeah, I hope everyone listening enjoyed. Thanks so much. And we gotta call it an episode here.

Speaker B: Thank you. That was really a great pleasure and a dream come true.

Speaker A: I'm glad to hear it. Thanks as always, everyone, for listening. We'll be back again sometime with another episode, I'm sure. Bye everyone.

Speaker B: We're waiting to be signed. Always, but we're waiting to be signed. Grail of the Week. It be time. We're waiting. Always lit.